Starmer

[ncRover]

Billy

Where do you think Starmer’s Labour fall on the political spectrum?

Centre-left, centre or centre right?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Those who are disenfranchised with Labour currently - who will you vote for?

That's almost the key question, but no quite.

The key question is: Who will you vote for once the Tories lurch to the far right after 2024's defeat?

[BillyStubbsTears]

It seems to me that Starmer will simply do or say anything to tempt voters to ‘cross the floor’.
He’s like a slimy real estate agent.

Belton

There's a political war coming down the tracks. The Tories WILL go into meltdown mode when they lose next year. They are going to go full on, batshit far right.

Labour, looking medium term, has two options.

1) Alienate the moderates on the centre right. Tell them.Labour is not for them. Leave them no option but to support a neo-fascist party, headed by someone like Braverman and thereby give them something of a wind under that party's wings.

2) Claim the centre ground. Be the grown up party in the new battle between democratic values and sense, against autocratic authoritarianism and the madness of Culture War.

You think I'm exaggerating? Look over the pond. A man who tried to start a coup d'etat is favourite to win next year.

You think that can't happen here? It can and it will if we don't wise up to what the real battle lines are.

I don't need to state that I was no lover of Thatcherism. But she was a totally different type of Tory to the ones that are going to fight like rats in a sack to inherit the Party after next year. Anyone who understands that danger, understands the need to draw dividing lines that are not influenced by old party loyalties.

The rise of the far right won't come from Epsom or Richmond in North Yorkshire it will come from Grimsby and Stoke On Trent Billy .

Aye. I know that's your fantasy. But you don't understand history. Fascism never comes from the mob alone. It's always a pact between the mob and the comfortably off.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Billy

Where do you think Starmer’s Labour fall on the political spectrum?

Centre-left, centre or centre right?

I think it's centre-left by inclination, but knowing that there is a massive hole in the centre-right, and that a centre left party cannot leave those voters to be pulled in the direction of a future Tory party dominated by Truss, Braverman and Farage.

[ncRover]

Billy

Where do you think Starmer’s Labour fall on the political spectrum?

Centre-left, centre or centre right?

I think it's centre-left by inclination, but knowing that there is a massive hole in the centre-right, and that a centre left party cannot leave those voters to be pulled in the direction of a future Tory party dominated by Truss, Braverman and Farage.

You would say centre then?

Because I don’t think that would leave the tories enough of a niche to fill the centre-right as a presentable alternative post-election.

The Tory direction could also depend on if they lose a significant amount of voters to Reform. They could also just tread water and see if Starmer ties himself in knots.

I asked my previous question because Labour losing say, a far-left student is 3 points lost.

But stealing a Tory voter is a real 6-pointer.

[drfchound]

A great many of the electorate will be listening very carefully to the style and tone of message espousing from the mouth of this individual.

A great many will be confused and wonder where are the elements of a Labour manifesto in his confusing rhetoric.

A great many others will be wondering how long he can carry on down this road before he gets found out for the fraud that he intends to bestow upon the population of this country.

Does he really believe he can con the electorate into believing he's had some sort of enlightenment conversion and after the election revert to type and backtrack on every utterance that's spilled out of his mouth?

Are we not rightfully castigating the current failures for this very public failure?

Rightly comes across as a man with no morals and political consensus, in effect worse than the Tories who have been rightly, constantly castigated for it on this forum, talk about double standards.

In my opinion, the majority of people who will vote at the GE won’t really know about what is discussed on such as this forum.
Lots will be immune from all the vitriol that is spouted by both sides.
Those people will simply vote for their preferred Party and will only find out about changes of track once the new government gets into gear.

[belton rover]

It seems to me that Starmer will simply do or say anything to tempt voters to ‘cross the floor’.
He’s like a slimy real estate agent.

Belton

There's a political war coming down the tracks. The Tories WILL go into meltdown mode when they lose next year. They are going to go full on, batshit far right.

Labour, looking medium term, has two options.

1) Alienate the moderates on the centre right. Tell them.Labour is not for them. Leave them no option but to support a neo-fascist party, headed by someone like Braverman and thereby give them something of a wind under that party's wings.

2) Claim the centre ground. Be the grown up party in the new battle between democratic values and sense, against autocratic authoritarianism and the madness of Culture War.

You think I'm exaggerating? Look over the pond. A man who tried to start a coup d'etat is favourite to win next year.

You think that can't happen here? It can and it will if we don't wise up to what the real battle lines are.

I don't need to state that I was no lover of Thatcherism. But she was a totally different type of Tory to the ones that are going to fight like rats in a sack to inherit the Party after next year. Anyone who understands that danger, understands the need to draw dividing lines that are not influenced by old party loyalties.

Well if you’re right about this, Billy, then what a sorry state of affairs this all is. If this is is what the Labour party need to do to prevent what you fear, then God help the country.

My political mind is much, much simpler than yours.
I just don’t think Starmer is to be trusted to make our country a better place.
It’s all very depressing.

Sorry state of affairs?

We'll aye. Have you not seen what our Government has been like recently?

The total lack of engagement with objective truth?

The regular venom-dripping announcements from a Home Secretary (a HOME SECRETARY!) that the legal system is the enemy?

The rantings of a recent PM that the civil service is the enemy?

The way the pair of them are positioning themselves for the fight to take the soul of the party in their directions?

The total lack of any ideas coming from the centre or left of the Tory party as to what its purpose is?

Do you reckon the Tory party is going to say "Fair dos. We'll start acting sensibly now" after the humiliation that is coming down the tracks at them next year?

I don’t want the current government to stay in power anymore than you do. I’m just very much less optimistic than you are that Starmer will even begin to put things right.
In old money politics, the things you mention should mean that a new Labour government could only do better.
But I have grave doubts that they will.
I repeat, a sorry state of affairs.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Belton

He's the only hope we've got, so we'd better hope he has a lucky touch. The alternative is genuinely frightening.

[belton rover]

Belton

He's the only hope we've got, so we'd better hope he has a lucky touch. The alternative is genuinely frightening.

There should be a third option: a Labour party without Starmer at the helm.
Though I haven’t got a clue who else that might be.
I would have said David Miliband once, but that ship has sailed.

[tyke1962]

It seems to me that Starmer will simply do or say anything to tempt voters to ‘cross the floor’.
He’s like a slimy real estate agent.

Belton

There's a political war coming down the tracks. The Tories WILL go into meltdown mode when they lose next year. They are going to go full on, batshit far right.

Labour, looking medium term, has two options.

1) Alienate the moderates on the centre right. Tell them.Labour is not for them. Leave them no option but to support a neo-fascist party, headed by someone like Braverman and thereby give them something of a wind under that party's wings.

2) Claim the centre ground. Be the grown up party in the new battle between democratic values and sense, against autocratic authoritarianism and the madness of Culture War.

You think I'm exaggerating? Look over the pond. A man who tried to start a coup d'etat is favourite to win next year.

You think that can't happen here? It can and it will if we don't wise up to what the real battle lines are.

I don't need to state that I was no lover of Thatcherism. But she was a totally different type of Tory to the ones that are going to fight like rats in a sack to inherit the Party after next year. Anyone who understands that danger, understands the need to draw dividing lines that are not influenced by old party loyalties.

The rise of the far right won't come from Epsom or Richmond in North Yorkshire it will come from Grimsby and Stoke On Trent Billy .

Aye. I know that's your fantasy. But you don't understand history. Fascism never comes from the mob alone. It's always a pact between the mob and the comfortably off.

My fantasy !!!

Need I remind you that between March 1984 to March 1985 your city and my town practically existed under a government that was as near to fascism as you can get so don't sneer down your nose at me  just because the state paid for your university history education .

Just about the only fantasy I see is a Labour government that wasn't bought for by the establishment and will actually take this country in a direction substantially better than it is today .

Perhaps " Make Brexit Better " man could also give Farage an endorsement too as he's given Thatcher for giving him the opportunity .

See how you'd like some of those apples Billy .

[tyke1962]

At least one Labour MP has some perspective , no prizes for guessing which wing of the party he attributes to .


https://x.com/IanByrneMP/status/1731247246518223293?s=20

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke

I admire your stance then.

I am rather alarmed at your current obsession with far right aggression.

I didn't study history at university by the way.

[drfchound]

Belton

He's the only hope we've got, so we'd better hope he has a lucky touch. The alternative is genuinely frightening.

There should be a third option: a Labour party without Starmer at the helm.
Though I haven’t got a clue who else that might be.
I would have said David Miliband once, but that ship has sailed.

I would hope it wouldn’t be the witch that is Angela Raynor.
She WOULD be a dictator.

[SydneyRover]

It seems to me that Starmer will simply do or say anything to tempt voters to ‘cross the floor’.
He’s like a slimy real estate agent.

Belton

There's a political war coming down the tracks. The Tories WILL go into meltdown mode when they lose next year. They are going to go full on, batshit far right.

Labour, looking medium term, has two options.

1) Alienate the moderates on the centre right. Tell them.Labour is not for them. Leave them no option but to support a neo-fascist party, headed by someone like Braverman and thereby give them something of a wind under that party's wings.

2) Claim the centre ground. Be the grown up party in the new battle between democratic values and sense, against autocratic authoritarianism and the madness of Culture War.

You think I'm exaggerating? Look over the pond. A man who tried to start a coup d'etat is favourite to win next year.

You think that can't happen here? It can and it will if we don't wise up to what the real battle lines are.

I don't need to state that I was no lover of Thatcherism. But she was a totally different type of Tory to the ones that are going to fight like rats in a sack to inherit the Party after next year. Anyone who understands that danger, understands the need to draw dividing lines that are not influenced by old party loyalties.

The rise of the far right won't come from Epsom or Richmond in North Yorkshire it will come from Grimsby and Stoke On Trent Billy .

Aye. I know that's your fantasy. But you don't understand history. Fascism never comes from the mob alone. It's always a pact between the mob and the comfortably off.

My fantasy !!!

Need I remind you that between March 1984 to March 1985 your city and my town practically existed under a government that was as near to fascism as you can get so don't sneer down your nose at me  just because the state paid for your university history education .

Just about the only fantasy I see is a Labour government that wasn't bought for by the establishment and will actually take this country in a direction substantially better than it is today .

Perhaps " Make Brexit Better " man could also give Farage an endorsement too as he's given Thatcher for giving him the opportunity .

See how you'd like some of those apples Billy .

The stage is yours tyke, give us a plan on how to do it with enough votes

[SydneyRover]

The 'unsatisfied' will have have had three years in April to mount their revolution against Starmer and throughout that time he's kept a steady course to where the party is now, a position that many/most would have thought impossible back then. Yep, one can throw more hats in the ring now a win looks possible, anyone can do that and plenty have but you have to put the work in. Starmer to this point has stared the naysayers down and looks like seeing off probably the worst series of governments ever.

[tyke1962]

Tyke

I admire your stance then.

I am rather alarmed at your current obsession with far right aggression.

I didn't study history at university by the way.

Far right aggression ?

Billy , I once shared a ferry from Holyhead to Dublin to attend the 1995 infamous Ireland v England game at Lansdowne Road with members of the far right but luckily had tickets for the Irish section of the ground .

I've seen what the far right are , what these people are and what they are capable of and that was nearly 30 years ago .

Don't you dare accuse me of having an obsession with far right aggression because my views don't configure with your more liberal outlook .

[SydneyRover]

Your views don't coincide with the majority of the left tyke, but this is how you debate, throwing in your little homilies and not addressing the matters in hand and of course going for the man.

[tyke1962]

It seems to me that Starmer will simply do or say anything to tempt voters to ‘cross the floor’.
He’s like a slimy real estate agent.

Belton

There's a political war coming down the tracks. The Tories WILL go into meltdown mode when they lose next year. They are going to go full on, batshit far right.

Labour, looking medium term, has two options.

1) Alienate the moderates on the centre right. Tell them.Labour is not for them. Leave them no option but to support a neo-fascist party, headed by someone like Braverman and thereby give them something of a wind under that party's wings.

2) Claim the centre ground. Be the grown up party in the new battle between democratic values and sense, against autocratic authoritarianism and the madness of Culture War.

You think I'm exaggerating? Look over the pond. A man who tried to start a coup d'etat is favourite to win next year.

You think that can't happen here? It can and it will if we don't wise up to what the real battle lines are.

I don't need to state that I was no lover of Thatcherism. But she was a totally different type of Tory to the ones that are going to fight like rats in a sack to inherit the Party after next year. Anyone who understands that danger, understands the need to draw dividing lines that are not influenced by old party loyalties.

The rise of the far right won't come from Epsom or Richmond in North Yorkshire it will come from Grimsby and Stoke On Trent Billy .

Aye. I know that's your fantasy. But you don't understand history. Fascism never comes from the mob alone. It's always a pact between the mob and the comfortably off.

My fantasy !!!

Need I remind you that between March 1984 to March 1985 your city and my town practically existed under a government that was as near to fascism as you can get so don't sneer down your nose at me  just because the state paid for your university history education .

Just about the only fantasy I see is a Labour government that wasn't bought for by the establishment and will actually take this country in a direction substantially better than it is today .

Perhaps " Make Brexit Better " man could also give Farage an endorsement too as he's given Thatcher for giving him the opportunity .

See how you'd like some of those apples Billy .

The stage is yours tyke, give us a plan on how to do it with enough votes

Generally you abandon the low paid and tell them they've no other place to go than to vote Labour .

Suck up to the right wing press , perhaps writing a column in a right wing newspaper that once told it's readers Liverpool fans had stolen money off its own dead fans .

Put as much distance between yourself and trade unions , strike action or picket lines .

Privatise parts of the NHS so the healthcare companies give you large donations .

Refuse to overturn any policies that were made under Tory governments even though you might have voted against them , this would include not returning anything what so ever back in to public ownership or repelling anti trade union legislation .

Allow in as many migrants as you possibly can to not only rub the rights nose in diversity but in the hope they will all become future Labour voters , they are also very handy doing low paid work so Labour  don't have to change the economic system first introduced under Thatcher .

If your going to at least live a lie then why not be the first party to actually hire someone whose remit is to lie and give it a fancy title like Director Of Communication .

Most importantly hope the Tory Party is the worst government in living memory so that it masks your own complete lack of competence and lack of ideas .


Alternatively you could not vote Labour and keep your dignity .

However that's clearly too much to ask even for someone who doesn't even live here .

[SydneyRover]

Unfortunately that's not a plan to either get rid of Starmer nor take government.

[tyke1962]

Your views don't coincide with the majority of the left tyke, but this is how you debate, throwing in your little homilies and not addressing the matters in hand and of course going for the man.

I don't care what my views do or do not follow in the respect of a total political tribe narrative .

Be nice Syd I wouldn't want you having to take another two month sabbatical from this board when you can't handle what you like to dish out .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Alternatively Tyke, you can keep your self-respect and have a Tory Govt in perpetuity. You can ignore all the improvements in the NHS and state education that the last Labour Govt brought in, because you don't want to believe they happened (plot spoiler: they did).

And what do you get out of that? The warm feeling that you personally never compromised, while state school buildings rot away and NHS waiting lists go through the roof and genuine fascists lead the next Government.

Good old you, eh? I bet you are chuffed to bits with the importance of your principles.

[roverstillidie91]

I wonder if Labour will back the motion by the Green Party to vote against the anti-strike Bill?

The thing I see here between Tories/Labour do they really appear to young people?

And in time where young people want a fairer system you'd think eventually votes will disappear from the main 2 parties.

What you have is a fascist authoritarian government who preys on the weak at present.

I hope Labour is better and fair but I'm not sure.

I wonder if Keir Starmer will honour his commitment to renationalising all public services? Seeing as he has promised and gone back on it already.

All 10 pledges to be precise.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Those who are disenfranchised with Labour currently - who will you vote for?

Green - likely to win Bristol West given Labour's degeneration. Otherwise any left independent, pirate party, or spoil the paper.

[SydneyRover]

Your views don't coincide with the majority of the left tyke, but this is how you debate, throwing in your little homilies and not addressing the matters in hand and of course going for the man.

I don't care what my views do or do not follow in the respect of a total political tribe narrative .

Be nice Syd I wouldn't want you having to take another two month sabbatical from this board when you can't handle what you like to dish out .

I was helping hound on his property (snigger) ''That you don't care'' is about the most honest statement I've read from you tyke, unfortunately it isn't news.

[SydneyRover]

Starmer:

"The point I am making in that article is that you can distinguish political leaders, certainly in the post war period, into those that had a plan and a sense of mission, and those that drifted essentially."

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-67604830

Fancy that eh

[Bristol Red Rover]

Why stick at UK leaders? Stalin had a plan. Hitler had a plan. Netanyahu has a plan. Don't hold back Keith.

[SydneyRover]

I can see the problem, there are of course different types of plans according to need.

[tyke1962]

Alternatively Tyke, you can keep your self-respect and have a Tory Govt in perpetuity. You can ignore all the improvements in the NHS and state education that the last Labour Govt brought in, because you don't want to believe they happened (plot spoiler: they did).

And what do you get out of that? The warm feeling that you personally never compromised, while state school buildings rot away and NHS waiting lists go through the roof and genuine fascists lead the next Government.

Good old you, eh? I bet you are chuffed to bits with the importance of your principles.

https://x.com/billybragg/status/1731257312575168700?s=20

[roverstillidie91]

Those who are disenfranchised with Labour currently - who will you vote for?

Green - likely to win Bristol West given Labour's degeneration. Otherwise any left independent, pirate party, or spoil the paper.

Labour think that Conservatives are going to defect to them.

Wrong - they are voting mainly for reform.

The best thing present Labour voters or people who want to vote I would say are either Indepndents, Green or a suitable alternative giving something different.

Labour think a majority is a given in my view, pressure will soon be mounting on Keir Starmer.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Totally wrong, the Tories are in an awful place.  The right will vote for Reform, the majority of central tory voters will vote labour who are largely enacting policies the tories would vote for.

My question is this.  Labour are proposing policies most of their voters on here have derided for years, are you still going to vote for them because they are labour?

As it stands I've no hesitation voting for labour at all, which means surely many of you won't want to?