Starmer

[SydneyRover]

Remind me what your position on welfare is 91?

[SydneyRover]

Keith can blow as much smoke up Tory voters backsides all he wants but I doubt many of them will be taken in by this fool .

Three options open for Tory voters , stick with the Tories , vote for Reform or stay at home on election day .

I've lived long enough to know you can never write the Tories off and the election campaign will be brutal and they will pin something on Labour or Keith that will have legs , I'm certain of it .

They may already be in possession of it and are waiting for the perfect time to play it .

Blair in 97 would probably have still won whatever the Tories through at him through sheer weight of personality .

Keith doesn't have that and despite what many might say personality is important .

some voters are easily led, think brexit

to be honest even I was, and look back now and it was definitely the wrong thing. I wasn't the only one though.

It's good to see someone brave enough to stand up and recognise that they made a poor decision 91, you are a stand out on the off topic forum in this regard.

[SydneyRover]

Totally wrong, the Tories are in an awful place.  The right will vote for Reform, the majority of central tory voters will vote labour who are largely enacting policies the tories would vote for.

My question is this.  Labour are proposing policies most of their voters on here have derided for years, are you still going to vote for them because they are labour?

As it stands I've no hesitation voting for labour at all, which means surely many of you won't want to?

Aye, center-right folk like yourself wanting to vote Labour and Starmers comments about Thatcher shows where Labour have gone to, yet some on here seem to want to shame people for considering not voting for Labour and accuse them of proxy voting to keep the Tories in, despite being more of the same but with a red rosette. Personally I'll consider which way to go when policies are announced but they're definitely taking the center-left vote for granted.

DO, undoubtedly labour are gunning for the middle ground and with solid reason, they need the bloody votes after the shellacking labour received only a couple of years ago. I put to you the same question that begs to be answered (not by anyone on the forum to date) and that is can you guarantee a labour win at the next election that would allow them the freedom to make promises that would turn some centre and centre right voters off? if you can't then you should be able to see the predicament.

If a labour government could halt the economic decline in it's first 18 months it would be quite an achievement considering there is little to show for 13+ years of tories. Righting the economy will be like turning the Queen Mary (or titanic) around and the great fear is is that the pre-election shit fight is looming with the support of the RW and far right media, look how they persuaded people, business people too ffs, to vote for brexit.

Question for you pud, even as you say the tories are awful (hint awful doesn't quite cover it) would you vote labour with corbyn economic policies in place? This should answer the question that no one has to date.

[drfchound]

What is your position on all of those issues Syd.
What would you do.

[normal rules]

Keir Starmer presumably thinks of himself as a social democrat, yet he's done more to shift the Overton Window to the right than any Labour leader since Blair. All of a sudden, nationalisation is a dirty word. Labour is competing with the Tories to be anti-immigration; competing to be the most pro-war in Israel and Palestine; competing to be the most fiscally conservative. Are any of you seriously inspired by this ghoul?

Do any of you seriously think this man will change anything? Starmer has empowered the right by accepting their views, and will govern as a Red Tory. If anything, he has lent credence to the Marxist 'social fascism' theory, that all social democrats achieve is the justification of the current horrendous state of affairs by making things *just tolerable enough* to prevent revolt.

 He is a leader who was hoisted into place through deceit and secret donors, and stands for nothing but the status quo. He is the textbook definition of an establishment politician, and no threat to powerful interests at all. Do any of you seriously think he will wage class war against the bourgeoisie, in the same way that the Tories have waged it against the working classes for over a decade?

I for one hope that Labour will fail to achieve a majority, and be forced to give PR to the Lib Dems in order to govern. Afterwards, we can vote for a genuinely transformative party, and soon enough, the failed, divided, catch-all and stand-for-nothing Labour and Conservative Parties will splinter and cease to exist.

And yet you wrote this nr

''I won’t be voting conservative for the next GE. I may even change the habit of my lifetime and vote Labour. Out of spite for all current left and right politics.  Let them take over the shit show and watch them implode too. Because only then will the people of this country realise we need a radical change in politics. And change will come.
So Lets have a labour govt and see how the country fairs for a while.
One thing is for sure, the Overton Window of Politics has remained static for way too long. Left and right politics have become way too blurred in recent years. Labour will manage this country no better or different to the current Tory establishment. They are too alike. Too central on the Overton window.
Argentina, Hungary, Switzerland, Poland, Sweden, Finland, Italy and the Netherlands. Populist/ nationalist politics is becoming more and more popular. And the Westminster left and right elite can do nothing about it. They are creating it with their pathetic, weak leadership. Labour will do nothing but add to this growing discord. They will kick the can down the road all over again. Starting with the small boats fiasco. Which they have no meaningful plan to deal with''

The sentiment is exactly the same . Besides I live in one of the safest Tory seats there are (Boston and Skegness) currently presided over by the wet blanket that is Matt Warman. Me voting for labour out of spite won’t change a damn thing in my local area. It’s just a personal thing. My way of saying f**k them all. Futile, I know. But full of sentiment.

[i_ateallthepies]

Keith can blow as much smoke up Tory voters backsides all he wants but I doubt many of them will be taken in by this fool .

Three options open for Tory voters , stick with the Tories , vote for Reform or stay at home on election day .

I've lived long enough to know you can never write the Tories off and the election campaign will be brutal and they will pin something on Labour or Keith that will have legs , I'm certain of it .

They may already be in possession of it and are waiting for the perfect time to play it .

Blair in 97 would probably have still won whatever the Tories through at him through sheer weight of personality .

Keith doesn't have that and despite what many might say personality is important .

So, which of those three have you decided to do, Tyke?

[Donnywolf]

Keir Starmer presumably thinks of himself as a social democrat, yet he's done more to shift the Overton Window to the right than any Labour leader since Blair. All of a sudden, nationalisation is a dirty word. Labour is competing with the Tories to be anti-immigration; competing to be the most pro-war in Israel and Palestine; competing to be the most fiscally conservative. Are any of you seriously inspired by this ghoul?

Do any of you seriously think this man will change anything? Starmer has empowered the right by accepting their views, and will govern as a Red Tory. If anything, he has lent credence to the Marxist 'social fascism' theory, that all social democrats achieve is the justification of the current horrendous state of affairs by making things *just tolerable enough* to prevent revolt.

 He is a leader who was hoisted into place through deceit and secret donors, and stands for nothing but the status quo. He is the textbook definition of an establishment politician, and no threat to powerful interests at all. Do any of you seriously think he will wage class war against the bourgeoisie, in the same way that the Tories have waged it against the working classes for over a decade?

I for one hope that Labour will fail to achieve a majority, and be forced to give PR to the Lib Dems in order to govern. Afterwards, we can vote for a genuinely transformative party, and soon enough, the failed, divided, catch-all and stand-for-nothing Labour and Conservative Parties will splinter and cease to exist.

And yet you wrote this nr

''I won’t be voting conservative for the next GE. I may even change the habit of my lifetime and vote Labour. Out of spite for all current left and right politics.  Let them take over the shit show and watch them implode too. Because only then will the people of this country realise we need a radical change in politics. And change will come.
So Lets have a labour govt and see how the country fairs for a while.
One thing is for sure, the Overton Window of Politics has remained static for way too long. Left and right politics have become way too blurred in recent years. Labour will manage this country no better or different to the current Tory establishment. They are too alike. Too central on the Overton window.
Argentina, Hungary, Switzerland, Poland, Sweden, Finland, Italy and the Netherlands. Populist/ nationalist politics is becoming more and more popular. And the Westminster left and right elite can do nothing about it. They are creating it with their pathetic, weak leadership. Labour will do nothing but add to this growing discord. They will kick the can down the road all over again. Starting with the small boats fiasco. Which they have no meaningful plan to deal with''

The sentiment is exactly the same . Besides I live in one of the safest Tory seats there are (Boston and Skegness) currently presided over by the wet blanket that is Matt Warman. Me voting for labour out of spite won’t change a damn thing in my local area. It’s just a personal thing. My way of saying f**k them all. Futile, I know. But full of sentiment.

You , I and may I say the people of the UK would benefit from PR . End extremism from wherever it comes and hopefully it would produce a centre ground of sensible people (because they exist on either side in the big 2 Parties) and further boost Parties like The Green Party and Lib Dems by giving them Seats in Parliament based on their percentage Votes (as most people know)

Furthermore it might (just might) get the 13 Million people eligible to Vote but who dont bother because "they dont think their Vote counts in their Constituency , or has any effect on the Government or the Country "

It didnt get them to vote in the Referendum though , I have to concede, and that was a binary choice so I may be wrong about the turnout in GEs jumping up if PR comes into being

Maybe with a lot of the 13 Million it wouldn't make any difference if they were paid to Vote

[normal rules]

our supposed democracy is rigged to give us a "choice" between the same turd painted different colours.

Im sure that doesn't look like a problem if you happen to like turds and just have to compromise over what colour it is painted, but if you don't want a turd at all, and are concerned that the never ending succession of turds are just getting shit everywhere, then it doesn't feel like compromise at all - the turd lovers at wallowing in it, and you have no choice but to float along side them while being told to get over it because People voted for this shit and that is how democracy works.

The next incoming turd will be painted red.(ish)

[roverstillidie91]

Remind me what your position on welfare is 91?

I believe there needs to be a balance obviously between what can be deemed between a lifestyle choice and it being absolute necessary to get benefits I.e. disabled, vulnerable, elderly etc.

However it is a tough and divisive subject I believe it isn't what the beneift claimants receive that is the issue it is their expenditure and it all stems from privatisation which has been a complete disaster and where possible should be reversed.

However it is wrong for the poorest to prop up the richest when they're making billions of pounds and the government are very clever with trying to turn everyone against each other. Especially benefit claimants I.e. your benefits Britain.

It is all deisnged to make people think, oh they're greedy when the majority aren't.

And people are even claiming benefits whilst they're working as well which some people don't realise and the government are clever with their psychology.

However, children and elderly, vulnerable people shouldn't be required in some cases choosing between eating and heating plus having their heating on rare cases at 10°.

And there's the case of food banks compared to when Labour was in power.

There's that many structural issues that have to be dealt with obviously each person or family is complex in some areas.

And how they are now trying to control us. Covid? It was the period they realised we could be controlled by the millions and we would comply.

Essentially if you make the poorer more and more productive for less it makes the richer richer.

We are going back to victorian times.

A starting point for Labour is to give a referendum on the EU or the very least the deal initially but it was all a pack of lies.

And why should we have hundreds of MPs in a population of millions be making decisions for us?

[roverstillidie91]

Keir Starmer presumably thinks of himself as a social democrat, yet he's done more to shift the Overton Window to the right than any Labour leader since Blair. All of a sudden, nationalisation is a dirty word. Labour is competing with the Tories to be anti-immigration; competing to be the most pro-war in Israel and Palestine; competing to be the most fiscally conservative. Are any of you seriously inspired by this ghoul?

Do any of you seriously think this man will change anything? Starmer has empowered the right by accepting their views, and will govern as a Red Tory. If anything, he has lent credence to the Marxist 'social fascism' theory, that all social democrats achieve is the justification of the current horrendous state of affairs by making things *just tolerable enough* to prevent revolt.

 He is a leader who was hoisted into place through deceit and secret donors, and stands for nothing but the status quo. He is the textbook definition of an establishment politician, and no threat to powerful interests at all. Do any of you seriously think he will wage class war against the bourgeoisie, in the same way that the Tories have waged it against the working classes for over a decade?

I for one hope that Labour will fail to achieve a majority, and be forced to give PR to the Lib Dems in order to govern. Afterwards, we can vote for a genuinely transformative party, and soon enough, the failed, divided, catch-all and stand-for-nothing Labour and Conservative Parties will splinter and cease to exist.

And yet you wrote this nr

''I won’t be voting conservative for the next GE. I may even change the habit of my lifetime and vote Labour. Out of spite for all current left and right politics.  Let them take over the shit show and watch them implode too. Because only then will the people of this country realise we need a radical change in politics. And change will come.
So Lets have a labour govt and see how the country fairs for a while.
One thing is for sure, the Overton Window of Politics has remained static for way too long. Left and right politics have become way too blurred in recent years. Labour will manage this country no better or different to the current Tory establishment. They are too alike. Too central on the Overton window.
Argentina, Hungary, Switzerland, Poland, Sweden, Finland, Italy and the Netherlands. Populist/ nationalist politics is becoming more and more popular. And the Westminster left and right elite can do nothing about it. They are creating it with their pathetic, weak leadership. Labour will do nothing but add to this growing discord. They will kick the can down the road all over again. Starting with the small boats fiasco. Which they have no meaningful plan to deal with''

The sentiment is exactly the same . Besides I live in one of the safest Tory seats there are (Boston and Skegness) currently presided over by the wet blanket that is Matt Warman. Me voting for labour out of spite won’t change a damn thing in my local area. It’s just a personal thing. My way of saying f**k them all. Futile, I know. But full of sentiment.

You , I and may I say the people of the UK would benefit from PR . End extremism from wherever it comes and hopefully it would produce a centre ground of sensible people (because they exist on either side in the big 2 Parties) and further boost Parties like The Green Party and Lib Dems by giving them Seats in Parliament based on their percentage Votes (as most people know)

Furthermore it might (just might) get the 13 Million people eligible to Vote but who dont bother because "they dont think their Vote counts in their Constituency , or has any effect on the Government or the Country "

It didnt get them to vote in the Referendum though , I have to concede, and that was a binary choice so I may be wrong about the turnout in GEs jumping up if PR comes into being

Maybe with a lot of the 13 Million it wouldn't make any difference if they were paid to Vote

they make people believe there's no point in voting because it strengthens the main parties.

It is all about psychology making them believe its not worth it.

I believe more people should vote personally and I do believe more younger people are voting.

Which is why they've brought in this photo ID to basically stop people from voting.

Another fascist act

[roverstillidie91]

Keith can blow as much smoke up Tory voters backsides all he wants but I doubt many of them will be taken in by this fool .

Three options open for Tory voters , stick with the Tories , vote for Reform or stay at home on election day .

I've lived long enough to know you can never write the Tories off and the election campaign will be brutal and they will pin something on Labour or Keith that will have legs , I'm certain of it .

They may already be in possession of it and are waiting for the perfect time to play it .

Blair in 97 would probably have still won whatever the Tories through at him through sheer weight of personality .

Keith doesn't have that and despite what many might say personality is important .

some voters are easily led, think brexit

to be honest even I was, and look back now and it was definitely the wrong thing. I wasn't the only one though.

It's good to see someone brave enough to stand up and recognise that they made a poor decision 91, you are a stand out on the off topic forum in this regard.

It is about taking responsibility and realising you've made a mistake. We all make them just own up you are more respected in that sense.

What people have to realise is being out the EU will make us poorer and it was mis sold to us all.

You can't expect to come out of something and have it better otherwise everyone would leave

It was designed to gain more control over us.

There needs to be a discussion over the consequences of leaving and for Labour/Tories to actually acknowledge the subject.

[drfchound]

I wonder what the outcome would be if there was (yet) another Brexit vote.

[SydneyRover]

91 ''they make people believe there's no point in voting because it strengthens the main parties''

Of course it's your own responsibility to vote how you see fit, I and others show the consequences of that, it not working and getting bad tory governments.

And when it goes wrong and the tories get in and remain in you can see the results in all the public services.

[normal rules]

Interesting few years ahead for the EU.

Geert Wilders is the stuff of nightmares for Ursula bin de shithouse.
#Nexit

And Charlie Weimers is Swedens version of Farage.
#Swexit

If either or both of the above happen, which is possible, then the whole  house of cards will collapse.

[roverstillidie91]

91 ''they make people believe there's no point in voting because it strengthens the main parties''

Of course it's your own responsibility to vote how you see fit, I and others show the consequences of that, it not working and getting bad tory governments.

And when it goes wrong and the tories get in and remain in you can see the results in all the public services.

what I believe is the right approach is to deal with the Conservatives and then after deal with Labour. Who hopefully will not have the majority they crave.

And should call a general election during their term if people aren't happy with them.

They've been happy enough to keep calling for one during the current term so should do the same if they have a revolving door of leaders.

[SydneyRover]

91 ''they make people believe there's no point in voting because it strengthens the main parties''

Of course it's your own responsibility to vote how you see fit, I and others show the consequences of that, it not working and getting bad tory governments.

And when it goes wrong and the tories get in and remain in you can see the results in all the public services.

what I believe is the right approach is to deal with the Conservatives and then after deal with Labour. Who hopefully will not have the majority they crave.

And should call a general election during their term if people aren't happy with them.

They've been happy enough to keep calling for one during the current term so should do the same if they have a revolving door of leaders.

Calling them out is not going to help, you have to get your hands dirty and get involved 91, it won't happen because of discussions on a 4th tier off topic forum. If you want ppr then you have to get involved and put pressure on the leadership, wishing for a coalition is not a high %age game.

[drfchound]

91 ''they make people believe there's no point in voting because it strengthens the main parties''

Of course it's your own responsibility to vote how you see fit, I and others show the consequences of that, it not working and getting bad tory governments.

And when it goes wrong and the tories get in and remain in you can see the results in all the public services.

If I didn’t know better I would think that you and others are telling people how they should vote.
Oh, wait a minute…….

[MachoMadness]

91 ''they make people believe there's no point in voting because it strengthens the main parties''

Of course it's your own responsibility to vote how you see fit, I and others show the consequences of that, it not working and getting bad tory governments.

And when it goes wrong and the tories get in and remain in you can see the results in all the public services.

Not always that simple. I'm of the belief that a complacent, ineffectual right wing Labour government opens the door to extremists like Braverman in 2029. Whereas a Labour Party worried about losing votes to the left and the centre is more likely to shift leftwards and implement policies that will actually help people, rather than simply getting in government because they believe it's their turn in charge.

Here's a thought. You could argue that UKIP are the most successful political party since Blair's Labour in 1997, despite never winning a single UK parliament vote. They successfully pulled the Overton window way to the right with an obsessive focus on immigration and social conservatism, that has had a direct influence on government policy.

Could the same happen with the Greens or whoever to pull the Labour party left? It's not a guarantee, but it's more likely than Kieth's current plan, which seems to hinge on growth magicked out of thin air, without any additional public spending or reversing any Tory policies whatsoever.

[Bentley Bullet]

I wonder what the outcome would be if there was (yet) another Brexit vote.

We'd be the laughingstock of the world at the mere suggestion of a re-vote after such a short time and the difficulties the world has faced due to COVID and the Russian invasion in that time, events that must surely have delayed our progress post-Brexit.

If we did have a vote and voted to rejoin the EU, it would be like Britain surrendering to the EU and it would walk all over us.

[SydneyRover]

91 ''they make people believe there's no point in voting because it strengthens the main parties''

Of course it's your own responsibility to vote how you see fit, I and others show the consequences of that, it not working and getting bad tory governments.

And when it goes wrong and the tories get in and remain in you can see the results in all the public services.

Not always that simple. I'm of the belief that a complacent, ineffectual right wing Labour government opens the door to extremists like Braverman in 2029. Whereas a Labour Party worried about losing votes to the left and the centre is more likely to shift leftwards and implement policies that will actually help people, rather than simply getting in government because they believe it's their turn in charge.

Here's a thought. You could argue that UKIP are the most successful political party since Blair's Labour in 1997, despite never winning a single UK parliament vote. They successfully pulled the Overton window way to the right with an obsessive focus on immigration and social conservatism, that has had a direct influence on government policy.

Could the same happen with the Greens or whoever to pull the Labour party left? It's not a guarantee, but it's more likely than Kieth's current plan, which seems to hinge on growth magicked out of thin air, without any additional public spending or reversing any Tory policies whatsoever.

That's the problem I have debated, the risk.

[SydneyRover]

MM, you need to find and ask those centre and centre right voters that would normally vote tory if they would vote labour with the policies you would be happy with, that would tell you if your risk strategy is viable.

I would think that labour, as all parties do, would have done private polling.

[Herbert Anchovy]

I'm not comfortable with Starmer seemingly 'praising' Mrs Thatcher, but I understand why he's done it. However, given the Labour lead in the polls, I'm not sure why he feels that he has to appeal to the Tory voters? They seem to be deserting the party already.

Many people have long memories and remember all too well the devastation that Thatcher's policies caused, and are continuing to cause, for whole communities. Being seen to praise her is a very risky move.

Saying that though, I'm forever amazed at how many people down here in the south still consider her to be the greatest PM of the past 70 years despite them not benefitting from any of her governments policies. Politics is a strange beast.

[SydneyRover]

I'm not comfortable with Starmer seemingly 'praising' Mrs Thatcher, but I understand why he's done it. However, given the Labour lead in the polls, I'm not sure why he feels that he has to appeal to the Tory voters? They seem to be deserting the party already.

Many people have long memories and remember all too well the devastation that Thatcher's policies caused, and are continuing to cause, for whole communities. Being seen to praise her is a very risky move.

Saying that though, I'm forever amazed at how many people down here in the south still consider her to be the greatest PM of the past 70 years despite them not benefitting from any of her governments policies. Politics is a strange beast.

For the same reasons the tories court labour votes HA.

[BillyStubbsTears]

91 ''they make people believe there's no point in voting because it strengthens the main parties''

Of course it's your own responsibility to vote how you see fit, I and others show the consequences of that, it not working and getting bad tory governments.

And when it goes wrong and the tories get in and remain in you can see the results in all the public services.

Not always that simple. I'm of the belief that a complacent, ineffectual right wing Labour government opens the door to extremists like Braverman in 2029. Whereas a Labour Party worried about losing votes to the left and the centre is more likely to shift leftwards and implement policies that will actually help people, rather than simply getting in government because they believe it's their turn in charge.

Here's a thought. You could argue that UKIP are the most successful political party since Blair's Labour in 1997, despite never winning a single UK parliament vote. They successfully pulled the Overton window way to the right with an obsessive focus on immigration and social conservatism, that has had a direct influence on government policy.

Could the same happen with the Greens or whoever to pull the Labour party left? It's not a guarantee, but it's more likely than Kieth's current plan, which seems to hinge on growth magicked out of thin air, without any additional public spending or reversing any Tory policies whatsoever.

Like the 2019 election campaign never happened...

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'm not comfortable with Starmer seemingly 'praising' Mrs Thatcher, but I understand why he's done it. However, given the Labour lead in the polls, I'm not sure why he feels that he has to appeal to the Tory voters? They seem to be deserting the party already.

Many people have long memories and remember all too well the devastation that Thatcher's policies caused, and are continuing to cause, for whole communities. Being seen to praise her is a very risky move.

Saying that though, I'm forever amazed at how many people down here in the south still consider her to be the greatest PM of the past 70 years despite them not benefitting from any of her governments policies. Politics is a strange beast.

Because the fight is not about next year's Election. That's as close to being a done deal as you'll ever get. The fight is about what happens when the Tories lurch to the very far right after they get hammered next year. The fight is about making sure that when moderate Tories look at the option of a Farage-Braverman-Truss led Tory party, or a Starmer-led LAbour one, it's a  no brainer which one they choose.

MM and others want Labour to move further to the Left and I understand the reasoning. But that leaves a massive opportunity for a genuinely British Fascist Party to say to moderate right wingers, "You support us, or you get Corbynism". It's the way that fascists have always come to power. By having a left wing bogeyman to scare the kids with.

Some on the Left seem to relish that fight. Personally, it scares the shite out of me, because history tells you which side usually wins. There have been many, many times more instances of fascists winning the battle than of strong left wing parties.

[i_ateallthepies]

I'm not comfortable with Starmer seemingly 'praising' Mrs Thatcher, but I understand why he's done it. However, given the Labour lead in the polls, I'm not sure why he feels that he has to appeal to the Tory voters? They seem to be deserting the party already.

Many people have long memories and remember all too well the devastation that Thatcher's policies caused, and are continuing to cause, for whole communities. Being seen to praise her is a very risky move.

Saying that though, I'm forever amazed at how many people down here in the south still consider her to be the greatest PM of the past 70 years despite them not benefitting from any of her governments policies. Politics is a strange beast.

It certainly is a strange beast, HA and I suspect a football forum is probably a good place to debate that.  The tribalism of football is something we surely all on here understand and unfortunately it appears politics engenders very similar feelings.

[MachoMadness]

I would argue there's a lot of space between the mild social democracy of Corbynism and current Starmerism that Starmer could comfortably occupy, without adopting policy positions to the right of Theresa May's government. The guy doesn't need to be the second coming of Fidel Castro to get the majority of the left on board with him, and no one serious is asking for that. Least of all me.

I voted for Starmer as leader! I was quite happy to accept some ideological compromise to get a Labour government! My first ever vote in a GE was for Gordon Brown's government! The problem is, at some point you compromise so much that you cease to be a credible alternative.

BST argues moving to the left, even slightly, creates a bogeyman for the far right to argue against. What will five years of Labour hand-wringing and whinging about how there's no money left do? I doubt the average voter on the street will give a f**k about "Corbynism" jibes if their standard of living improves. Five years of this status quo, however... that puts us in a scary place.

[scawsby steve]

Keith can blow as much smoke up Tory voters backsides all he wants but I doubt many of them will be taken in by this fool .

Three options open for Tory voters , stick with the Tories , vote for Reform or stay at home on election day .

I've lived long enough to know you can never write the Tories off and the election campaign will be brutal and they will pin something on Labour or Keith that will have legs , I'm certain of it .

They may already be in possession of it and are waiting for the perfect time to play it .

Blair in 97 would probably have still won whatever the Tories through at him through sheer weight of personality .

Keith doesn't have that and despite what many might say personality is important .

So, which of those three have you decided to do, Tyke?

If you're suggesting by that snide remark that Tyke is a Tory voter, then you either don't read his posts, or you have a poor understanding of semantics.

[scawsby steve]

Keith can blow as much smoke up Tory voters backsides all he wants but I doubt many of them will be taken in by this fool .

Three options open for Tory voters , stick with the Tories , vote for Reform or stay at home on election day .

I've lived long enough to know you can never write the Tories off and the election campaign will be brutal and they will pin something on Labour or Keith that will have legs , I'm certain of it .

They may already be in possession of it and are waiting for the perfect time to play it .

Blair in 97 would probably have still won whatever the Tories through at him through sheer weight of personality .

Keith doesn't have that and despite what many might say personality is important .

some voters are easily led, think brexit

Whoa, whoa, whoa, Mr Syd. An article today in your beloved paragon of truth, "the Guardian", is saying that Brexit is not the disaster that some predicted, and that the EU economy over the last few years has been "woeful".

Care to comment?

[tyke1962]

I'm not comfortable with Starmer seemingly 'praising' Mrs Thatcher, but I understand why he's done it. However, given the Labour lead in the polls, I'm not sure why he feels that he has to appeal to the Tory voters? They seem to be deserting the party already.

Many people have long memories and remember all too well the devastation that Thatcher's policies caused, and are continuing to cause, for whole communities. Being seen to praise her is a very risky move.

Saying that though, I'm forever amazed at how many people down here in the south still consider her to be the greatest PM of the past 70 years despite them not benefitting from any of her governments policies. Politics is a strange beast.

Because the fight is not about next year's Election. That's as close to being a done deal as you'll ever get. The fight is about what happens when the Tories lurch to the very far right after they get hammered next year. The fight is about making sure that when moderate Tories look at the option of a Farage-Braverman-Truss led Tory party, or a Starmer-led LAbour one, it's a  no brainer which one they choose.

MM and others want Labour to move further to the Left and I understand the reasoning. But that leaves a massive opportunity for a genuinely British Fascist Party to say to moderate right wingers, "You support us, or you get Corbynism". It's the way that fascists have always come to power. By having a left wing bogeyman to scare the kids with.

Some on the Left seem to relish that fight. Personally, it scares the shite out of me, because history tells you which side usually wins. There have been many, many times more instances of fascists winning the battle than of strong left wing parties.

You really can't see what's in front of your nose can you Billy .

If Labour get elected to government and don't make the necessary changes this country is desperate for then they are part of the problem too and will make the ground even more fertile for the rise of the far right .

Tories don't care , Labour don't care , guess where that ones heading .

The far right are on the rise in Europe , the warning signs are clear , the barbarians aren't at the gate , some of them are already inside .

We get the far right because Labour fail then it's their fault .