0 Members and 9 Guests are viewing this topic.
Quote from: SydneyRover on December 04, 2023, 08:51:06 pmQuote from: tyke1962 on December 04, 2023, 08:35:30 pmKeith can blow as much smoke up Tory voters backsides all he wants but I doubt many of them will be taken in by this fool .Three options open for Tory voters , stick with the Tories , vote for Reform or stay at home on election day .I've lived long enough to know you can never write the Tories off and the election campaign will be brutal and they will pin something on Labour or Keith that will have legs , I'm certain of it .They may already be in possession of it and are waiting for the perfect time to play it .Blair in 97 would probably have still won whatever the Tories through at him through sheer weight of personality .Keith doesn't have that and despite what many might say personality is important .some voters are easily led, think brexit to be honest even I was, and look back now and it was definitely the wrong thing. I wasn't the only one though.
Quote from: tyke1962 on December 04, 2023, 08:35:30 pmKeith can blow as much smoke up Tory voters backsides all he wants but I doubt many of them will be taken in by this fool .Three options open for Tory voters , stick with the Tories , vote for Reform or stay at home on election day .I've lived long enough to know you can never write the Tories off and the election campaign will be brutal and they will pin something on Labour or Keith that will have legs , I'm certain of it .They may already be in possession of it and are waiting for the perfect time to play it .Blair in 97 would probably have still won whatever the Tories through at him through sheer weight of personality .Keith doesn't have that and despite what many might say personality is important .some voters are easily led, think brexit
Keith can blow as much smoke up Tory voters backsides all he wants but I doubt many of them will be taken in by this fool .Three options open for Tory voters , stick with the Tories , vote for Reform or stay at home on election day .I've lived long enough to know you can never write the Tories off and the election campaign will be brutal and they will pin something on Labour or Keith that will have legs , I'm certain of it .They may already be in possession of it and are waiting for the perfect time to play it .Blair in 97 would probably have still won whatever the Tories through at him through sheer weight of personality .Keith doesn't have that and despite what many might say personality is important .
Quote from: big fat yorkshire pudding on December 04, 2023, 09:26:48 amTotally wrong, the Tories are in an awful place. The right will vote for Reform, the majority of central tory voters will vote labour who are largely enacting policies the tories would vote for.My question is this. Labour are proposing policies most of their voters on here have derided for years, are you still going to vote for them because they are labour?As it stands I've no hesitation voting for labour at all, which means surely many of you won't want to?Aye, center-right folk like yourself wanting to vote Labour and Starmers comments about Thatcher shows where Labour have gone to, yet some on here seem to want to shame people for considering not voting for Labour and accuse them of proxy voting to keep the Tories in, despite being more of the same but with a red rosette. Personally I'll consider which way to go when policies are announced but they're definitely taking the center-left vote for granted.
Totally wrong, the Tories are in an awful place. The right will vote for Reform, the majority of central tory voters will vote labour who are largely enacting policies the tories would vote for.My question is this. Labour are proposing policies most of their voters on here have derided for years, are you still going to vote for them because they are labour?As it stands I've no hesitation voting for labour at all, which means surely many of you won't want to?
Quote from: normal rules on December 04, 2023, 08:08:43 pmKeir Starmer presumably thinks of himself as a social democrat, yet he's done more to shift the Overton Window to the right than any Labour leader since Blair. All of a sudden, nationalisation is a dirty word. Labour is competing with the Tories to be anti-immigration; competing to be the most pro-war in Israel and Palestine; competing to be the most fiscally conservative. Are any of you seriously inspired by this ghoul?Do any of you seriously think this man will change anything? Starmer has empowered the right by accepting their views, and will govern as a Red Tory. If anything, he has lent credence to the Marxist 'social fascism' theory, that all social democrats achieve is the justification of the current horrendous state of affairs by making things *just tolerable enough* to prevent revolt. He is a leader who was hoisted into place through deceit and secret donors, and stands for nothing but the status quo. He is the textbook definition of an establishment politician, and no threat to powerful interests at all. Do any of you seriously think he will wage class war against the bourgeoisie, in the same way that the Tories have waged it against the working classes for over a decade?I for one hope that Labour will fail to achieve a majority, and be forced to give PR to the Lib Dems in order to govern. Afterwards, we can vote for a genuinely transformative party, and soon enough, the failed, divided, catch-all and stand-for-nothing Labour and Conservative Parties will splinter and cease to exist.And yet you wrote this nr''I won’t be voting conservative for the next GE. I may even change the habit of my lifetime and vote Labour. Out of spite for all current left and right politics. Let them take over the shit show and watch them implode too. Because only then will the people of this country realise we need a radical change in politics. And change will come.So Lets have a labour govt and see how the country fairs for a while.One thing is for sure, the Overton Window of Politics has remained static for way too long. Left and right politics have become way too blurred in recent years. Labour will manage this country no better or different to the current Tory establishment. They are too alike. Too central on the Overton window.Argentina, Hungary, Switzerland, Poland, Sweden, Finland, Italy and the Netherlands. Populist/ nationalist politics is becoming more and more popular. And the Westminster left and right elite can do nothing about it. They are creating it with their pathetic, weak leadership. Labour will do nothing but add to this growing discord. They will kick the can down the road all over again. Starting with the small boats fiasco. Which they have no meaningful plan to deal with''
Keir Starmer presumably thinks of himself as a social democrat, yet he's done more to shift the Overton Window to the right than any Labour leader since Blair. All of a sudden, nationalisation is a dirty word. Labour is competing with the Tories to be anti-immigration; competing to be the most pro-war in Israel and Palestine; competing to be the most fiscally conservative. Are any of you seriously inspired by this ghoul?Do any of you seriously think this man will change anything? Starmer has empowered the right by accepting their views, and will govern as a Red Tory. If anything, he has lent credence to the Marxist 'social fascism' theory, that all social democrats achieve is the justification of the current horrendous state of affairs by making things *just tolerable enough* to prevent revolt. He is a leader who was hoisted into place through deceit and secret donors, and stands for nothing but the status quo. He is the textbook definition of an establishment politician, and no threat to powerful interests at all. Do any of you seriously think he will wage class war against the bourgeoisie, in the same way that the Tories have waged it against the working classes for over a decade?I for one hope that Labour will fail to achieve a majority, and be forced to give PR to the Lib Dems in order to govern. Afterwards, we can vote for a genuinely transformative party, and soon enough, the failed, divided, catch-all and stand-for-nothing Labour and Conservative Parties will splinter and cease to exist.
Quote from: SydneyRover on December 04, 2023, 11:30:53 pmQuote from: normal rules on December 04, 2023, 08:08:43 pmKeir Starmer presumably thinks of himself as a social democrat, yet he's done more to shift the Overton Window to the right than any Labour leader since Blair. All of a sudden, nationalisation is a dirty word. Labour is competing with the Tories to be anti-immigration; competing to be the most pro-war in Israel and Palestine; competing to be the most fiscally conservative. Are any of you seriously inspired by this ghoul?Do any of you seriously think this man will change anything? Starmer has empowered the right by accepting their views, and will govern as a Red Tory. If anything, he has lent credence to the Marxist 'social fascism' theory, that all social democrats achieve is the justification of the current horrendous state of affairs by making things *just tolerable enough* to prevent revolt. He is a leader who was hoisted into place through deceit and secret donors, and stands for nothing but the status quo. He is the textbook definition of an establishment politician, and no threat to powerful interests at all. Do any of you seriously think he will wage class war against the bourgeoisie, in the same way that the Tories have waged it against the working classes for over a decade?I for one hope that Labour will fail to achieve a majority, and be forced to give PR to the Lib Dems in order to govern. Afterwards, we can vote for a genuinely transformative party, and soon enough, the failed, divided, catch-all and stand-for-nothing Labour and Conservative Parties will splinter and cease to exist.And yet you wrote this nr''I won’t be voting conservative for the next GE. I may even change the habit of my lifetime and vote Labour. Out of spite for all current left and right politics. Let them take over the shit show and watch them implode too. Because only then will the people of this country realise we need a radical change in politics. And change will come.So Lets have a labour govt and see how the country fairs for a while.One thing is for sure, the Overton Window of Politics has remained static for way too long. Left and right politics have become way too blurred in recent years. Labour will manage this country no better or different to the current Tory establishment. They are too alike. Too central on the Overton window.Argentina, Hungary, Switzerland, Poland, Sweden, Finland, Italy and the Netherlands. Populist/ nationalist politics is becoming more and more popular. And the Westminster left and right elite can do nothing about it. They are creating it with their pathetic, weak leadership. Labour will do nothing but add to this growing discord. They will kick the can down the road all over again. Starting with the small boats fiasco. Which they have no meaningful plan to deal with''The sentiment is exactly the same . Besides I live in one of the safest Tory seats there are (Boston and Skegness) currently presided over by the wet blanket that is Matt Warman. Me voting for labour out of spite won’t change a damn thing in my local area. It’s just a personal thing. My way of saying f**k them all. Futile, I know. But full of sentiment.
Remind me what your position on welfare is 91?
Quote from: normal rules on December 05, 2023, 08:57:45 amQuote from: SydneyRover on December 04, 2023, 11:30:53 pmQuote from: normal rules on December 04, 2023, 08:08:43 pmKeir Starmer presumably thinks of himself as a social democrat, yet he's done more to shift the Overton Window to the right than any Labour leader since Blair. All of a sudden, nationalisation is a dirty word. Labour is competing with the Tories to be anti-immigration; competing to be the most pro-war in Israel and Palestine; competing to be the most fiscally conservative. Are any of you seriously inspired by this ghoul?Do any of you seriously think this man will change anything? Starmer has empowered the right by accepting their views, and will govern as a Red Tory. If anything, he has lent credence to the Marxist 'social fascism' theory, that all social democrats achieve is the justification of the current horrendous state of affairs by making things *just tolerable enough* to prevent revolt. He is a leader who was hoisted into place through deceit and secret donors, and stands for nothing but the status quo. He is the textbook definition of an establishment politician, and no threat to powerful interests at all. Do any of you seriously think he will wage class war against the bourgeoisie, in the same way that the Tories have waged it against the working classes for over a decade?I for one hope that Labour will fail to achieve a majority, and be forced to give PR to the Lib Dems in order to govern. Afterwards, we can vote for a genuinely transformative party, and soon enough, the failed, divided, catch-all and stand-for-nothing Labour and Conservative Parties will splinter and cease to exist.And yet you wrote this nr''I won’t be voting conservative for the next GE. I may even change the habit of my lifetime and vote Labour. Out of spite for all current left and right politics. Let them take over the shit show and watch them implode too. Because only then will the people of this country realise we need a radical change in politics. And change will come.So Lets have a labour govt and see how the country fairs for a while.One thing is for sure, the Overton Window of Politics has remained static for way too long. Left and right politics have become way too blurred in recent years. Labour will manage this country no better or different to the current Tory establishment. They are too alike. Too central on the Overton window.Argentina, Hungary, Switzerland, Poland, Sweden, Finland, Italy and the Netherlands. Populist/ nationalist politics is becoming more and more popular. And the Westminster left and right elite can do nothing about it. They are creating it with their pathetic, weak leadership. Labour will do nothing but add to this growing discord. They will kick the can down the road all over again. Starting with the small boats fiasco. Which they have no meaningful plan to deal with''The sentiment is exactly the same . Besides I live in one of the safest Tory seats there are (Boston and Skegness) currently presided over by the wet blanket that is Matt Warman. Me voting for labour out of spite won’t change a damn thing in my local area. It’s just a personal thing. My way of saying f**k them all. Futile, I know. But full of sentiment.You , I and may I say the people of the UK would benefit from PR . End extremism from wherever it comes and hopefully it would produce a centre ground of sensible people (because they exist on either side in the big 2 Parties) and further boost Parties like The Green Party and Lib Dems by giving them Seats in Parliament based on their percentage Votes (as most people know)Furthermore it might (just might) get the 13 Million people eligible to Vote but who dont bother because "they dont think their Vote counts in their Constituency , or has any effect on the Government or the Country "It didnt get them to vote in the Referendum though , I have to concede, and that was a binary choice so I may be wrong about the turnout in GEs jumping up if PR comes into beingMaybe with a lot of the 13 Million it wouldn't make any difference if they were paid to Vote
Quote from: roverstillidie91 on December 04, 2023, 11:27:58 pmQuote from: SydneyRover on December 04, 2023, 08:51:06 pmQuote from: tyke1962 on December 04, 2023, 08:35:30 pmKeith can blow as much smoke up Tory voters backsides all he wants but I doubt many of them will be taken in by this fool .Three options open for Tory voters , stick with the Tories , vote for Reform or stay at home on election day .I've lived long enough to know you can never write the Tories off and the election campaign will be brutal and they will pin something on Labour or Keith that will have legs , I'm certain of it .They may already be in possession of it and are waiting for the perfect time to play it .Blair in 97 would probably have still won whatever the Tories through at him through sheer weight of personality .Keith doesn't have that and despite what many might say personality is important .some voters are easily led, think brexit to be honest even I was, and look back now and it was definitely the wrong thing. I wasn't the only one though.It's good to see someone brave enough to stand up and recognise that they made a poor decision 91, you are a stand out on the off topic forum in this regard.
91 ''they make people believe there's no point in voting because it strengthens the main parties''Of course it's your own responsibility to vote how you see fit, I and others show the consequences of that, it not working and getting bad tory governments.And when it goes wrong and the tories get in and remain in you can see the results in all the public services.
Quote from: SydneyRover on December 05, 2023, 09:59:08 am91 ''they make people believe there's no point in voting because it strengthens the main parties''Of course it's your own responsibility to vote how you see fit, I and others show the consequences of that, it not working and getting bad tory governments.And when it goes wrong and the tories get in and remain in you can see the results in all the public services. what I believe is the right approach is to deal with the Conservatives and then after deal with Labour. Who hopefully will not have the majority they crave.And should call a general election during their term if people aren't happy with them.They've been happy enough to keep calling for one during the current term so should do the same if they have a revolving door of leaders.
I wonder what the outcome would be if there was (yet) another Brexit vote.
Quote from: SydneyRover on December 05, 2023, 09:59:08 am91 ''they make people believe there's no point in voting because it strengthens the main parties''Of course it's your own responsibility to vote how you see fit, I and others show the consequences of that, it not working and getting bad tory governments.And when it goes wrong and the tories get in and remain in you can see the results in all the public services.Not always that simple. I'm of the belief that a complacent, ineffectual right wing Labour government opens the door to extremists like Braverman in 2029. Whereas a Labour Party worried about losing votes to the left and the centre is more likely to shift leftwards and implement policies that will actually help people, rather than simply getting in government because they believe it's their turn in charge.Here's a thought. You could argue that UKIP are the most successful political party since Blair's Labour in 1997, despite never winning a single UK parliament vote. They successfully pulled the Overton window way to the right with an obsessive focus on immigration and social conservatism, that has had a direct influence on government policy.Could the same happen with the Greens or whoever to pull the Labour party left? It's not a guarantee, but it's more likely than Kieth's current plan, which seems to hinge on growth magicked out of thin air, without any additional public spending or reversing any Tory policies whatsoever.
I'm not comfortable with Starmer seemingly 'praising' Mrs Thatcher, but I understand why he's done it. However, given the Labour lead in the polls, I'm not sure why he feels that he has to appeal to the Tory voters? They seem to be deserting the party already. Many people have long memories and remember all too well the devastation that Thatcher's policies caused, and are continuing to cause, for whole communities. Being seen to praise her is a very risky move. Saying that though, I'm forever amazed at how many people down here in the south still consider her to be the greatest PM of the past 70 years despite them not benefitting from any of her governments policies. Politics is a strange beast.
Quote from: tyke1962 on December 04, 2023, 08:35:30 pmKeith can blow as much smoke up Tory voters backsides all he wants but I doubt many of them will be taken in by this fool .Three options open for Tory voters , stick with the Tories , vote for Reform or stay at home on election day .I've lived long enough to know you can never write the Tories off and the election campaign will be brutal and they will pin something on Labour or Keith that will have legs , I'm certain of it .They may already be in possession of it and are waiting for the perfect time to play it .Blair in 97 would probably have still won whatever the Tories through at him through sheer weight of personality .Keith doesn't have that and despite what many might say personality is important .So, which of those three have you decided to do, Tyke?
Quote from: Herbert Anchovy on December 05, 2023, 11:50:42 amI'm not comfortable with Starmer seemingly 'praising' Mrs Thatcher, but I understand why he's done it. However, given the Labour lead in the polls, I'm not sure why he feels that he has to appeal to the Tory voters? They seem to be deserting the party already. Many people have long memories and remember all too well the devastation that Thatcher's policies caused, and are continuing to cause, for whole communities. Being seen to praise her is a very risky move. Saying that though, I'm forever amazed at how many people down here in the south still consider her to be the greatest PM of the past 70 years despite them not benefitting from any of her governments policies. Politics is a strange beast. Because the fight is not about next year's Election. That's as close to being a done deal as you'll ever get. The fight is about what happens when the Tories lurch to the very far right after they get hammered next year. The fight is about making sure that when moderate Tories look at the option of a Farage-Braverman-Truss led Tory party, or a Starmer-led LAbour one, it's a no brainer which one they choose. MM and others want Labour to move further to the Left and I understand the reasoning. But that leaves a massive opportunity for a genuinely British Fascist Party to say to moderate right wingers, "You support us, or you get Corbynism". It's the way that fascists have always come to power. By having a left wing bogeyman to scare the kids with. Some on the Left seem to relish that fight. Personally, it scares the shite out of me, because history tells you which side usually wins. There have been many, many times more instances of fascists winning the battle than of strong left wing parties.