Grant McCann

[i_ateallthepies]

To put across my "wisecrack" earlier in the thread in a more serious manner - I'm just not sure what you want/expect people to do?

You don't want McCann to be sacked, and I'm pretty sure as a Rovers fan and a sane human being you don't want GM to suffer the abuse that Schofield did last season either (which was horrific, and I said at the time how disgusted I was with that, regardless of how I thought of his abilities as a manager)

So what is the actual issue you're getting at? We can't go back in time and undo the fierce criticism Schofield got. We can repent for our collective sins but there's really not much else that can be done, and I personally don't see the value in continuing to dredge up the criticism Schofield got as a stick to beat people with when they want to support McCann. Isn't it a good thing if folk are backing our manager now and giving him a fair crack of the whip rather than getting on his back?

I think you (and others on here) overplay this "quasi-religious faith" or "fascination" that people have with McCann. I don't think anyone can deny after the last 2 months' performances that this season is piss poor and well below expectations. However, on the other side of the coin I think the majority of sensible fans can recognise that McCann is a capable manager with the track record to prove it, and he's got a level of popularity from his last spell here (whether you feel that is warranted or not) buying him a bit of extra goodwill as well, which I think goes a long way to explaining why it's taking fans a longer time to turn on him than it did Schofield. Sadly DS didn't have either of those factors to fall back on.

I think most of us can now also recognise that you have to draw a line somewhere in terms of chopping and changing managers, and we probably wouldn't be best served going down that route now. Maybe sacking Schofield was one change too far as well, but I would be surprised if the ill-feeling among the fanbase, and prospect of terrible season ticket sales didn't play a part in that change.

Agree with every single point you make here, pib.

[Bentley Bullet]

As grown-up, knowledgable football fans we should be careful of giving judgment on matters when we don't know the full story of events within the club. In Wellens' case, he had expected to have Okenabirhie available in the run-up to Christmas, but a late setback in his comeback meant a change of plan was necessary in the January transfer window. Wellens was sacked in December before any new plan could be carried out.

Who knows, If Wellens was kept on we'd still be in L1?

[pib]

Pib.

I have this failing that I expect rationality from people. To look at facts and draw sensible conclusions.

I do think the "repent" thing gets close to the issue. If people want to be taken seriously, then sticking to the line that Schofield was f**king useless, while McCann is above criticism (and there are people whose takes those are) doesn't cut it for me.

But that's just my take. I accept that many people reserve the right to hold contradictory views and shout them out loudly.

Back to McCann's track record, I've said before that one thing he absolutely hasn't done is to take a club in crisis and turn it round. My worry is that there's been very little sign of that happening this season. Recruitment has been more miss than hit, while selections and on-field tactics have been woeful for much of the season. And it's not just the last two months. We had one, brief purple patch (mainly against bottom of the table or out of form sides) and other than that we've won 14 points in 22 games.

Given what I saw last season, I'm pretty sure that Schofield would have made a better fist of this squad than McCann has done. For me then, the jury is definitely out on McCann. We simply must demonstrate an ability to be (at the very least) equal to the sum of our parts for the rest of the season, with some semblance of a style of play that will give us some hope for a better season next year.

I can't disagree with a lot of what you've said there, but I think you're holding out hope for the impossible expecting people to be 100% rational at all times. We're all football fans, and emotion guides many of people's thoughts when it comes to their football team rather than logic most of the time, and I'd go as far as to say that's a net positive when it comes to football fandom in general. None of us would support Doncaster Rovers based on pure rationality would we? And if people took a step back to think about it, people probably wouldn't chant half of the things they do at football matches based on rationality either.

I agree that there is some revisionism that needs to be done with regards to Schofield and we need to acknowledge that he got a rougher deal than he deserved. And I'll say it again, the abuse he got at Harrogate and other matches at the back end of last season crossed the line, and then some.

He got thrown under the bus really. Our own board have even acknowledged that he had no chance of competing with the budget he had available. I maintain he probably didn't help himself at times but he was still set up to fail.

Again though, how long do we have to carry the guilt over this when supporting the current manager? Like I said I think it's helpful that McCann still has the backing of the majority.

Regarding this season, absolutely it's been a massive disappointment and has to improve. I'm a big fan of his, but I'm surprised McCann has allowed standards to sink as low as he has to be honest. I thought his force of personality would nip a lot of the downright unprofessional shite we've seen this season in the bud. But then again - has he got the quality players he needs? It's not lost on me that he was involved in the recruitment of half of them, which is a fair criticism of him, but on balance I think, as long as we stay up, he probably deserves the summer to prove he's learned from his mistakes and to put this right. If we're in this position in a year's time, I'll have a very different take though, believe me.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB.

That still doesn't justify refusing to play Bogle and regularly starting with the Turkish Uncle Fester instead. One more win and we'd have stayed up.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Pib.

I don't think our thinking is that far apart. I'll admit, I was f**king incandescent with the formation and style of play on Saturday, which to me was suggestive of a manager that was resigned to guessing. But I took think on balance he deserves (some) more time. We have every right to expect a big improvement in the run in. If there's no improvement by October at the latest, I think his number would be up.

[Bentley Bullet]

BB.

That still doesn't justify refusing to play Bogle and regularly starting with the Turkish Uncle Fester instead. One more win and we'd have stayed up.

BST.

You obviously didn't read my first sentence so here it is again just for you.

As grown-up, knowledgeable football fans we should be careful of giving judgment on matters when we don't know the full story of events within the club.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB.
I skim over most of what you write. Otherwise I'd waste even more time disagreeing with you.

[Bentley Bullet]

BB.
I skim over most of what you write. Otherwise, I'd waste even more time disagreeing with you.

Well, it was aimed at grown-up, knowledgeable football fans so perhaps it would have been better all round if you'd just ignored it.

[pib]

Pib.

I don't think our thinking is that far apart. I'll admit, I was f**king incandescent with the formation and style of play on Saturday, which to me was suggestive of a manager that was resigned to guessing. But I took think on balance he deserves (some) more time. We have every right to expect a big improvement in the run in. If there's no improvement by October at the latest, I think his number would be up.

I think that's the case a lot of the time. We all want the same thing but all have different ways of analysing and expressing it.

I didn't go to the game on Saturday so can't comment on the performance for myself. I did see the line-up and wasn't sure what we were going for at all. I assumed we lined up to compensate for not having the players to operate a functioning midfield, but it sounds like not much else functioned either as it turned out.

I'm more than happy to admit my views have changed slightly over the last couple of months. I still believe we have a good manager and he can improve us given time, resources, and better recruitment. But I'm sure if you find my posts from October/November or earlier, I was very much of the opinion that it was too early to judge him because of the injuries and the shitshow he inherited, and he should be given something of a pass until he'd had sufficient time to sort things out.

By now my thinking is, we have to start improving and the mitigating circumstances/excuses won't wash for much longer. Unfortunately we appear to have gone backwards recently. We desperately need this to turn around because going into the National League is unthinkable for this club in this era. It will be a very very long road back if that happens.

[BillyStubbsTears]

The formation on Saturday was bizarre. Best I could describe it as was 5-2-3, but given that Adelakun seemed to wander wherever he wanted, and Waters was never in the same postcode as Ironside, might be more accurate to call it 5-2-1 + a couple.

We got absolutely overrun in midfield until he brought Broadbent on. And barely created a meaningful chance up front.

And, early days and all that, but Adelakun before Molyneux? Craziest selection of the season in a very competitive field.

[ForsolongaRover]

In the context of a club of the size and resources of Rovers, we are comparing an unproven inexperienced manager (Schofield) whose results were at best moderate, but fundamentally disappointing, with his better-qualified successor. And it is not unreasonable to expect, not just better from McCann, but significantly better.

The advantage McCann has over Schofield is that he has empathy. Schofield was not personable and never let his listeners into his thoughts; he never got down to any sort of detail or cogent explanation of what he wanted or why things went wrong.

That naturally led to the belief that he did not really have any strategy, or worse still he did not recognise what was going wrong. Attributing conceding goals to “them moments” never sounded very professional. I think too, that until recently it has been generally acknowledged that his brand of football was decidedly unexciting.

You might expect McCann to be able to  manage the players and the execution of his game plans better, but currently this doesn’t seem to be happening. Nor is it clear what the plan is.

If nothing else, recent results leave little doubt about the club’s predicament. The Board have an experienced professional businessman in the chair and a CEO who has been in place long enough to analyse the options so that at senior management level at least, they choose the best path ahead. Somehow you imagine that another manager would not be the best option.

The  club’s decline must be one of the most rapid seen in the EFL in recent years, especially when outside factors, like ownership or financial problems are not present.

[drfcsteve]

The formation on Saturday was bizarre. Best I could describe it as was 5-2-3, but given that Adelakun seemed to wander wherever he wanted, and Waters was never in the same postcode as Ironside, might be more accurate to call it 5-2-1 + a couple.

We got absolutely overrun in midfield until he brought Broadbent on. And barely created a meaningful chance up front.

And, early days and all that, but Adelakun before Molyneux? Craziest selection of the season in a very competitive field.

This is what confuses me. I would have described the formation exactly the same, and it was obvious to me and clearly others that a 2 man midfield would mean we have no control of the game and just let them come at us repeatedly.

Injuries and poor signings you can excuse to an extent, but obvious tactical errors like on Saturday?

[DearneValleyRover]

Our midfield has been the problem since Moore left. Every transfer window there are loads of posts stating we need to sign midfielders whether they are nesters or creative, if we can see this why haven’t successive managers not?

[DonnyOsmond]

Our midfield has been the problem since Moore left. Every transfer window there are loads of posts stating we need to sign midfielders whether they are nesters or creative, if we can see this why haven’t successive managers not?

New managers that don't necessarily know the squad making the decisions and also lack of budget in Schofield's case.

[DearneValleyRover]

Our midfield has been the problem since Moore left. Every transfer window there are loads of posts stating we need to sign midfielders whether they are nesters or creative, if we can see this why haven’t successive managers not?

New managers that don't necessarily know the squad making the decisions and also lack of budget in Schofield's case.

Most prospective managers go and watch games or watch the videos of games so they would have seen what we have. I will say none of us knew the extent of how bad the budget was under Blunt.

[drfchound]

When he was here first time McCann said that he had watched all of the videos from the previous season (or something like that) and so knew what the players were like and how we played.

[DonnyOsmond]

There's a different level of knowing players to watching game videos then managing squads daily. Bringing in a manager in the summer is a daft idea.

[In the box]

Even it means playing in the National League for a few seasons and all the income lost as a result !!!

[GazLaz]

The formation on Saturday was bizarre. Best I could describe it as was 5-2-3, but given that Adelakun seemed to wander wherever he wanted, and Waters was never in the same postcode as Ironside, might be more accurate to call it 5-2-1 + a couple.

We got absolutely overrun in midfield until he brought Broadbent on. And barely created a meaningful chance up front.

And, early days and all that, but Adelakun before Molyneux? Craziest selection of the season in a very competitive field.

I could kind of see what he was trying to do by having the extra centre half, sitting in and making us less vulnerable to the counter.

We weren’t great were we but neither were they. I thought a draw was about fair really.


We have to have a real go on Saturday against a poor team in Tranmere. At home, I’d like to see us go back to a back four. I’d revert back to the front three of Moly, Ironside and Hurst I think. The midfield three is where the headache comes in. Rowe and Bailey weren’t great at the weekend, Biggins could play but has to play that pretty specific role where he has a lot of licence to get into the box. How does Waters then fit into the side? The squad is a mess isn’t it. I would play Bailey and Broadbent holding I think. Broadbent last chance is to have him to play a deeper no6 role. He’s been dreadful as a no8 so far in his Rovers career. Simplify his job, get him sitting infront of the back four and hope that brings about a bit of form.

[Dare to dream!]

Waters was our best player on Saturday - he has to start again Saturday.

Broadbent needs to step up now, he’s got an opportunity to grab this back the neck and show us what he’s got.

[ravenrover]

Hurst will be fortunate to be on the bench from what I've seen of him this season

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hurst will be fortunate to be on the bench from what I've seen of him this season

Hurst is lightweight, but to be fair to him, he put in an excellent cross that resulted in the penalty on Saturday.

Just the right position to tempt the keeper into something rash.

[GazLaz]

Hurst will be fortunate to be on the bench from what I've seen of him this season

Hurst is lightweight, but to be fair to him, he put in an excellent cross that resulted in the penalty on Saturday.

Just the right position to tempt the keeper into something rash.

He’s got something. There’s plenty he hasn’t got as well admittedly but it’s the “something” that we are lacking isn’t it.

4231 with Waters, Hurst and Moly in behind sounds ok. We have to work out how we progress to them through the fullbacks and 2 no6’s though. Thats an issue for us.

[Nudga]

Hurst will be fortunate to be on the bench from what I've seen of him this season

Hurst is lightweight, but to be fair to him, he put in an excellent cross that resulted in the penalty on Saturday.

Just the right position to tempt the keeper into something rash.

He’s got something. There’s plenty he hasn’t got as well admittedly but it’s the “something” that we are lacking isn’t it.

4231 with Waters, Hurst and Moly in behind sounds ok. We have to work out how we progress to them through the fullbacks and 2 no6’s though. Thats an issue for us.

4132 at home with Waters partnering Ironside.
Bailey at cdm.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Hurst will be fortunate to be on the bench from what I've seen of him this season

Hurst is lightweight, but to be fair to him, he put in an excellent cross that resulted in the penalty on Saturday.

Just the right position to tempt the keeper into something rash.

He’s got something. There’s plenty he hasn’t got as well admittedly but it’s the “something” that we are lacking isn’t it.

4231 with Waters, Hurst and Moly in behind sounds ok. We have to work out how we progress to them through the fullbacks and 2 no6’s though. Thats an issue for us.

4132 at home with Waters partnering Ironside.
Bailey at cdm.

Bailey just isn't a great CDM though, far far better CB for me.  I agree with Gaz, Broadbent could be good in the holding role.

[drfcsteve]

Broadbent can put in a tackle so might as well try him in the holding role.

[danumdon]

But doesn't this then mean that Broadbent, being the link between the defence and attacking midfield has to receive and give a pass?

Has anyone seen him do this at any time this season?

[Bills view]

I don't like singling people out but I have not seen anything in Broadbent that indicates there's a talented footballer about to emerge. And we paid a fee for him. Hope I'm proved wrong (at some point soon).

[Sammy Chung was King]

I have no doubt McCann’s budget with us, is at a much lower level than he has had at say Hull. The problem is he knew what he was coming into budget wise I would think. I do think he underestimated how much the whole club was overshadowed, by a losing mentality. Just bringing players in doesn’t sort that out on its own. The fans have a part to play in this, as soon as something negative happens our fans have very little patience for it, after going so many years struggling, after beforehand being used to doing reasonably well.

I worry our team doesn’t look as fit as other sides. That is your start point. Make sure nobody can outwork you. From that all the ability will come out. The injury situation just rolls on and on. They have become long term injuries now. The new guy in charge of that could be doing a fine job, in reorganising that side of things but we see no progress because the players are still not available. Sometimes work behind the scenes doesn’t show up straight away.

McCann hasn’t done a good job, we can’t hide from that. His job is based on results. He hasn’t got enough positive results for us.
The board has been failing for sometime. I feel like we need new energy in there, but Terry isn’t prepared to have a new investor, even if someone was interested. I think the ideal solution is staring him in the face. Bring John Ryan onto the board as chairman of the football side, so Terry can do things in the background like he seems to prefer, if he doesn’t want new investment. If he has any ambition to take us back to the championship, more money will be needed with the right manager in place so it isn’t wasted.

[drfcsteve]

He hasn’t got results but he hasn’t managed to get us playing any in any particular way either. First time round fans liked him for his attacking up and at em style. Saturday we played 4 centre halfs and 2 full backs and tried not to lose. That wasn’t the McCann style and I hope he finds the confidence at some point again to go for it more.