General Election

[SydneyRover]

Very pleased to see Labour committing to making the minimum wage a genuine living wage that people can live on.

I remember working at the Job Centre just before the first Minimum Wage legislation was passed and seeing jobs advertised at scandalously low rates. One "Label Sticker wanted £1.20 per hour. No experience necessary" will always stick in my mind.

Not only the fair and moral thing to commit to but also the economic conditions means it makes absolute sense. Very low unemployment and a strong labour market.

That must be classed as a difference, surely?

[Iberian Red]

I'd be a lot more forgiving of Hound trolling me on this topic if he was able to explain which of the core points that I've made in that post (yes, yes, yes, obviously exaggerated for comic effects) are factually wrong.

The Tories ARE now disproportionately supported by old people who self identify as disliking foreigners.

The Tory party IS facing a major challenge to keep hold of those voters in the face of Reform doing the "we don't like foreigners" thing more effectively.

The Tory party HAS regularly enacted policies which have disproportionately hit the young, while insulating the old.

The idiotic National Service idea HAS been thought up on the hoof, in a panic at how badly the Tories have started, literally 2 days after a minister categorically said they were not going to bring back National Service.

But a right winger there thinks it's ludicrous to point these facts out. Thank goodness I've got him on ignore.

Disliking of foreigners or disliking of mass immigration Billy ?

Disliking of foreigners is a subtle attempt at pointing the finger towards racism .

Disliking mass immigration is a political issue , even Starmer has said it needs to be reduced although he says many things of course .

We see you Billy boy .

Disliking of foreigners is racist.

Just like a disliking of 6 fingered inbreds could be considered anti Barnsley.

Disliking of foreigners is xenophobia not racism, read a dictionary sometime

https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/xenophobia-and-racism-difference

Well,thanks for the advice Ldr.
Maybe you can help me on the nitty gritty finer detail.
What's the difference between a xenophobe and racist?
I've always imagined they are typically overweight gammon faced losers.
Is that correct?

[Ldr]

I'd be a lot more forgiving of Hound trolling me on this topic if he was able to explain which of the core points that I've made in that post (yes, yes, yes, obviously exaggerated for comic effects) are factually wrong.

The Tories ARE now disproportionately supported by old people who self identify as disliking foreigners.

The Tory party IS facing a major challenge to keep hold of those voters in the face of Reform doing the "we don't like foreigners" thing more effectively.

The Tory party HAS regularly enacted policies which have disproportionately hit the young, while insulating the old.

The idiotic National Service idea HAS been thought up on the hoof, in a panic at how badly the Tories have started, literally 2 days after a minister categorically said they were not going to bring back National Service.

But a right winger there thinks it's ludicrous to point these facts out. Thank goodness I've got him on ignore.

Disliking of foreigners or disliking of mass immigration Billy ?

Disliking of foreigners is a subtle attempt at pointing the finger towards racism .

Disliking mass immigration is a political issue , even Starmer has said it needs to be reduced although he says many things of course .

We see you Billy boy .

Disliking of foreigners is racist.

Just like a disliking of 6 fingered inbreds could be considered anti Barnsley.

Disliking of foreigners is xenophobia not racism, read a dictionary sometime

https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/xenophobia-and-racism-difference

Well,thanks for the advice Ldr.
Maybe you can help me on the nitty gritty finer detail.
What's the difference between a xenophobe and racist?
I've always imagined they are typically overweight gammon faced losers.
Is that correct?

Am sure a man of your “intelligence” can get everything he needs from the link provided

[drfchound]

Very pleased to see Labour committing to making the minimum wage a genuine living wage that people can live on.

I remember working at the Job Centre just before the first Minimum Wage legislation was passed and seeing jobs advertised at scandalously low rates. One "Label Sticker wanted £1.20 per hour. No experience necessary" will always stick in my mind.

Not only the fair and moral thing to commit to but also the economic conditions means it makes absolute sense. Very low unemployment and a strong labour market.

That must be classed as a difference, surely?

It would be very much a difference Syd, if Starmer doesn’t change his mind again.
I hope he doesn’t.

[Iberian Red]

I'd be a lot more forgiving of Hound trolling me on this topic if he was able to explain which of the core points that I've made in that post (yes, yes, yes, obviously exaggerated for comic effects) are factually wrong.

The Tories ARE now disproportionately supported by old people who self identify as disliking foreigners.

The Tory party IS facing a major challenge to keep hold of those voters in the face of Reform doing the "we don't like foreigners" thing more effectively.

The Tory party HAS regularly enacted policies which have disproportionately hit the young, while insulating the old.

The idiotic National Service idea HAS been thought up on the hoof, in a panic at how badly the Tories have started, literally 2 days after a minister categorically said they were not going to bring back National Service.

But a right winger there thinks it's ludicrous to point these facts out. Thank goodness I've got him on ignore.

Disliking of foreigners or disliking of mass immigration Billy ?

Disliking of foreigners is a subtle attempt at pointing the finger towards racism .

Disliking mass immigration is a political issue , even Starmer has said it needs to be reduced although he says many things of course .

We see you Billy boy .

Disliking of foreigners is racist.

Just like a disliking of 6 fingered inbreds could be considered anti Barnsley.

Disliking of foreigners is xenophobia not racism, read a dictionary sometime

https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/xenophobia-and-racism-difference

Well,thanks for the advice Ldr.
Maybe you can help me on the nitty gritty finer detail.
What's the difference between a xenophobe and racist?
I've always imagined they are typically overweight gammon faced losers.
Is that correct?

Am sure a man of your “intelligence” can get everything he needs from the link provided

Yep. I found 50 shades of gammon.
Not sure which one you are tho.

[Ldr]

I'd be a lot more forgiving of Hound trolling me on this topic if he was able to explain which of the core points that I've made in that post (yes, yes, yes, obviously exaggerated for comic effects) are factually wrong.

The Tories ARE now disproportionately supported by old people who self identify as disliking foreigners.

The Tory party IS facing a major challenge to keep hold of those voters in the face of Reform doing the "we don't like foreigners" thing more effectively.

The Tory party HAS regularly enacted policies which have disproportionately hit the young, while insulating the old.

The idiotic National Service idea HAS been thought up on the hoof, in a panic at how badly the Tories have started, literally 2 days after a minister categorically said they were not going to bring back National Service.

But a right winger there thinks it's ludicrous to point these facts out. Thank goodness I've got him on ignore.

Disliking of foreigners or disliking of mass immigration Billy ?

Disliking of foreigners is a subtle attempt at pointing the finger towards racism .

Disliking mass immigration is a political issue , even Starmer has said it needs to be reduced although he says many things of course .

We see you Billy boy .

Disliking of foreigners is racist.

Just like a disliking of 6 fingered inbreds could be considered anti Barnsley.

Disliking of foreigners is xenophobia not racism, read a dictionary sometime

https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/xenophobia-and-racism-difference

Well,thanks for the advice Ldr.
Maybe you can help me on the nitty gritty finer detail.
What's the difference between a xenophobe and racist?
I've always imagined they are typically overweight gammon faced losers.
Is that correct?

Am sure a man of your “intelligence” can get everything he needs from the link provided

Yep. I found 50 shades of gammon.
Not sure which one you are tho.

Oh you are grown up today aren't you?

[Iberian Red]

I've given you a like.
That's what grown ups do.
Or do they just troll,ask pedantic questions when they disagree with someone's opinion?

You and I know exactly which category you gall into.

[Ldr]

I've given you a like.
That's what grown ups do.
Or do they just troll,ask pedantic questions when they disagree with someone's opinion?

You and I know exactly which category you gall into.

You never said anything to agree / disagree with. Pedantry you may not like but is what I said wrong?

[Iberian Red]

I've given you a like.
That's what grown ups do.
Or do they just troll,ask pedantic questions when they disagree with someone's opinion?

You and I know exactly which category you gall into.

You never said anything to agree / disagree with. Pedantry you may not like but is what I said wrong?

Pedantry.
It is.
Get a dictionary out every now and then.

[Ldr]

I've given you a like.
That's what grown ups do.
Or do they just troll,ask pedantic questions when they disagree with someone's opinion?

You and I know exactly which category you gall into.

You never said anything to agree / disagree with. Pedantry you may not like but is what I said wrong?

Pedantry.
It is.
Get a dictionary out every now and then.

That makes no sense

[Herbert Anchovy]

When I first came down to London and worked on the building sites in the early 80's I was most definitely in the political minority as a Labour supporter. Virtually all of the other lads were your typical working class Tories who all loved Thatcher and I could never work out why their political views were as they were.

When the Miners strike was going on I'd go back to Donny to see family on a weekend and see for myself the effect that it was having on communities in Yorkshire. It was hugely depressing seeing towns like Donny being allowed to run down like it was. Going back to London afterwards was just like returning to a different planet though.

I used to tell the lads at work about what was going on and how people were suffering in Yorkshire and literally, nobody gave a shit. In fact, a lot of people were of the view that communities in Yorkshire deserved what they were getting for always voting Labour and, more pertinently, being part of or backing the Unions. They fell for the 'them and us' policy put forward by the government that the Socialists, Unions and their supporters were the 'enemy' and if we could just crush them then that'd improve the lot for everyone in the country.

It was from this point that I started to understand why working class lads from London and Essex were staunch Tories. They actually believed that they could only be successful (i.e. wealthy) if the rest of the country was put in it's place. And Maggie was the one to do it.

I see similar things now, except the 'enemy' right now are young people but soon it'll be immigrants again and then probably people on benefits again etc.. etc.. and it really, really depresses me.

[BillyStubbsTears]

HA

Your second last paragraph. I had a similar experience when I went to university in 1985. Someone I got to know (not someone I'd consider a close friend, but he was interesting and fun) was a firm Tory supporter. We got talking about the idea of extending university opportunities to other kids. I gave examples of people I'd known at school who had razor sharp minds, but who, for whatever reason, had left school at 16 and never even thought of university as a possibility.

He said he was glad they didn't. Because it was in his interests to keep the pool of graduates as small as possible to maximise his own market value.

It was a genuine eye opener into how Tory minds operate. Both selfish AND profoundly damaging for the country and society as a whole.

[danumdon]

Very difficult to equate a place like Doncaster with London. There could not be a more extreme example, especially when the period you are talking about is the early 80's.

London then was on the cusp of a construction revolution (Canary Wharf, DLR, ect) Doncaster was in the midst of an industrial meltdown.

Do you not think that the working class Tories you worked with were in the process of filling their boots while the going was good.

It may sound harsh but i would imagine plenty of them were thinking along the lines of "i'm getting stuck in, working hard and making a mint, why are others not doing the same"

We all know life's not as easy or straight forward as that for everyone but for someone in that environment, its very easy to see their thought processes.

I don't agree with your statement that they thought the could only do well if the rest of the country was crushed and put in its place.

The Tories great mantra at that time was Tebbit's "get on your bike" attitude to aspiring people for them to reap a benefit from moving to where the opportunities existed.

I did something similar to you in the 90's, the opportunities in my field were very restricted in Donny and i moved to London to benefit from the vastly increased opportunities. I worked with plenty of people with the same attitude you explained, all of them to a man(and woman|) were determined to strive and make something of themselves from what lay in front of them. They didn't want or need unions to work for them, they were motivated to do it themselves, and they did.

If anything its this attitude that needs to be reinforced into people today, a sense of reliance and belief in oneself to achieve and go onto make something of their careers.

I now work back in the North and work with plenty of youngsters entering our industry who have taken this outlook on board, they all know they are starting from a difficult base but are determined to progress and succeed. Their a credit to themselves and with this attitude they will go on and the world is their oyster.

We need to see this more in this day and age, don't wait for someone to tell you what you should do or can do, go out and show them what you will do.

You and i did it, no reason why more can't go on and achieve.

[danumdon]

HA

Your second last paragraph. I had a similar experience when I went to university in 1985. Someone I got to know (not someone I'd consider a close friend, but he was interesting and fun) was a firm Tory supporter. We got talking about the idea of extending university opportunities to other kids. I gave examples of people I'd known at school who had razor sharp minds, but who, for whatever reason, had left school at 16 and never even thought of university as a possibility.

He said he was glad they didn't. Because it was in his interests to keep the pool of graduates as small as possible to maximise his own market value.

It was a genuine eye opener into how Tory minds operate. Both selfish AND profoundly damaging for the country and society as a whole.

It's a bit of a long shot to equate what is one persons thoughts onto a whole section of people.

Its a bit like saying that all people who vote Labour think the same as Billy Smith in Edlo, who's brought up his family of 8 and lived entirely on benefits for the whole duration.

That's not a reasonable thing to say and anyone of a sound and grounded mind would think so.

[BillyStubbsTears]

DD.

Individuals looking after and out for themselves form the core of Toryism.

Who was it who said there's no such thing as society?

If you hear a great icon of Toryism saying that, it's drawing a line. You choose which side of it you want to live your life on. I'm very happy that I chose a different position.

[danumdon]

DD.

Individuals looking after and out for themselves form the core of Toryism.

Who was it who said there's no such thing as society?

If you hear a great icon of Toryism saying that, it's drawing a line. You choose which side of it you want to live your life on. I'm very happy that I chose a different position.

So your doubling down on this!

Regardless what you think forms the core of Toryism your going to call out a whole tranche of society because "that's how you think they all are"

Tone deaf and tin eared comes to mind, and i don't think all Labour supporters are like you.

I'd say most people will think the best way to help someone is to make sure they have put themselves in a position to be able to help them first.

[Herbert Anchovy]

Very difficult to equate a place like Doncaster with London. There could not be a more extreme example, especially when the period you are talking about is the early 80's.

London then was on the cusp of a construction revolution (Canary Wharf, DLR, ect) Doncaster was in the midst of an industrial meltdown.

Do you not think that the working class Tories you worked with were in the process of filling their boots while the going was good.

It may sound harsh but i would imagine plenty of them were thinking along the lines of "i'm getting stuck in, working hard and making a mint, why are others not doing the same"

We all know life's not as easy or straight forward as that for everyone but for someone in that environment, its very easy to see their thought processes.

I don't agree with your statement that they thought the could only do well if the rest of the country was crushed and put in its place.

The Tories great mantra at that time was Tebbit's "get on your bike" attitude to aspiring people for them to reap a benefit from moving to where the opportunities existed.

I did something similar to you in the 90's, the opportunities in my field were very restricted in Donny and i moved to London to benefit from the vastly increased opportunities. I worked with plenty of people with the same attitude you explained, all of them to a man(and woman|) were determined to strive and make something of themselves from what lay in front of them. They didn't want or need unions to work for them, they were motivated to do it themselves, and they did.

If anything its this attitude that needs to be reinforced into people today, a sense of reliance and belief in oneself to achieve and go onto make something of their careers.

I now work back in the North and work with plenty of youngsters entering our industry who have taken this outlook on board, they all know they are starting from a difficult base but are determined to progress and succeed. Their a credit to themselves and with this attitude they will go on and the world is their oyster.

We need to see this more in this day and age, don't wait for someone to tell you what you should do or can do, go out and show them what you will do.

You and i did it, no reason why more can't go on and achieve.

I agree with some of your points there fella.

I stand by my point about keeping the rest of the country down though. That was absolutely the view of quite a few people that I worked with at the time. The left and the Unions were seen as an enemy who wanted to turn us into the Soviet Union was how some of them viewed it, and if those workers in the North were made to suffer as a result of these views then so be it. I get that it sounds contrived but it was absolutely the view held by quite a few.

I agree with your last point around aspirations and I also agree that young people seem to be more aspirational than when I was young. However, I was lucky that I was able to do it and that I was pushed to do it by my old man (after I'd been laid off 3 times in 2 years). But I also want to ensure that those who can't 'get on their bike' are helped and supported as much they need to be.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

DD.

Individuals looking after and out for themselves form the core of Toryism.

Who was it who said there's no such thing as society?

If you hear a great icon of Toryism saying that, it's drawing a line. You choose which side of it you want to live your life on. I'm very happy that I chose a different position.

What do you make of Terry Brammall?

[SydneyRover]

dd ''Its a bit like saying that all people who vote Labour think the same as Billy Smith in Edlo, who's brought up his family of 8 and lived entirely on benefits for the whole duration''

quite correct dd

'tone deaf' does come to mind

[danumdon]

dd ''Its a bit like saying that all people who vote Labour think the same as Billy Smith in Edlo, who's brought up his family of 8 and lived entirely on benefits for the whole duration''

quite correct dd

'tone deaf' does come to mind

You do relise that everyone else can see the full quote and not just the selected for impact that you have posted!

Go to bed daft lad.

[BillyStubbsTears]

DD.

Individuals looking after and out for themselves form the core of Toryism.

Who was it who said there's no such thing as society?

If you hear a great icon of Toryism saying that, it's drawing a line. You choose which side of it you want to live your life on. I'm very happy that I chose a different position.

So your doubling down on this!

Regardless what you think forms the core of Toryism your going to call out a whole tranche of society because "that's how you think they all are"

Tone deaf and tin eared comes to mind, and i don't think all Labour supporters are like you.

I'd say most people will think the best way to help someone is to make sure they have put themselves in a position to be able to help them first.

Who said, there's no such thing as society?

[SydneyRover]

dd ''Its a bit like saying that all people who vote Labour think the same as Billy Smith in Edlo, who's brought up his family of 8 and lived entirely on benefits for the whole duration''

quite correct dd

'tone deaf' does come to mind

You do relise that everyone else can see the full quote and not just the selected for impact that you have posted!

Go to bed daft lad.

What more do people need to see beyond the line highlighted above dd how can it get any better?

[danumdon]

DD.

Individuals looking after and out for themselves form the core of Toryism.

Who was it who said there's no such thing as society?

If you hear a great icon of Toryism saying that, it's drawing a line. You choose which side of it you want to live your life on. I'm very happy that I chose a different position.

So your doubling down on this!

Regardless what you think forms the core of Toryism your going to call out a whole tranche of society because "that's how you think they all are"

Tone deaf and tin eared comes to mind, and i don't think all Labour supporters are like you.

I'd say most people will think the best way to help someone is to make sure they have put themselves in a position to be able to help them first.

Who said, there's no such thing as society?

So let me get this straight, because some long dead politician said something that's debatable at best and batshit crazy at worst and this was reinforced to you by a Tory voter, you deem a large proportion of the population to be sub optimal or unworthy of your "high standards"

Wasn't it you just the other day talking about older people hating young people, have you not just done the same?

My advice is go lay down in a darkened room for a few days. Barking!

[Bristol Red Rover]

What I hear from the above posts is how a kick ass attitude is important to be able to get on. I partly agree. Where this fails is first in creating a culture of selfishness - thanks Maggie and friends - and secondly in ignoring the creativity and energy in many people who are seriously disadvantaged. That costs everyone in benefit payments, health costs, policing, prisons, general societal chaos and destruction. Far better to see society values of support being valued, and effectively used. Overall, that is never a tory value. The tory value, the establishment value is, has always been,  divide and rule. Blame the disadvantaged, the ones not fitting into the militaristic values of the mainstream.

Starmers Labour is largely on board with that society selfishness story.

[SydneyRover]

What I hear from the above posts is how a kick ass attitude is important to be able to get on. I partly agree. Where this fails is first in creating a culture of selfishness - thanks Maggie and friends - and secondly in ignoring the creativity and energy in many people who are seriously disadvantaged. That costs everyone in benefit payments, health costs, policing, prisons, general societal chaos and destruction. Far better to see society values of support being valued, and effectively used. Overall, that is never a tory value. The tory value, the establishment value is, has always been,  divide and rule. Blame the disadvantaged, the ones not fitting into the militaristic values of the mainstream.

Starmers Labour is largely on board with that society selfishness story.

You should send this information to tory HQ where they will try and instigate a police investigation.

[BillyStubbsTears]

DD.

Individuals looking after and out for themselves form the core of Toryism.

Who was it who said there's no such thing as society?

If you hear a great icon of Toryism saying that, it's drawing a line. You choose which side of it you want to live your life on. I'm very happy that I chose a different position.

So your doubling down on this!

Regardless what you think forms the core of Toryism your going to call out a whole tranche of society because "that's how you think they all are"

Tone deaf and tin eared comes to mind, and i don't think all Labour supporters are like you.

I'd say most people will think the best way to help someone is to make sure they have put themselves in a position to be able to help them first.

Who said, there's no such thing as society?

So let me get this straight, because some long dead politician said something that's debatable at best and batshit crazy at worst and this was reinforced to you by a Tory voter, you deem a large proportion of the population to be sub optimal or unworthy of your "high standards"

Wasn't it you just the other day talking about older people hating young people, have you not just done the same?

My advice is go lay down in a darkened room for a few days. Barking!

DD.

Individuals looking after and out for themselves form the core of Toryism.

Who was it who said there's no such thing as society?

If you hear a great icon of Toryism saying that, it's drawing a line. You choose which side of it you want to live your life on. I'm very happy that I chose a different position.

So your doubling down on this!

Regardless what you think forms the core of Toryism your going to call out a whole tranche of society because "that's how you think they all are"

Tone deaf and tin eared comes to mind, and i don't think all Labour supporters are like you.

I'd say most people will think the best way to help someone is to make sure they have put themselves in a position to be able to help them first.

Who said, there's no such thing as society?

So let me get this straight, because some long dead politician said something that's debatable at best and batshit crazy at worst and this was reinforced to you by a Tory voter, you deem a large proportion of the population to be sub optimal or unworthy of your "high standards"

Wasn't it you just the other day talking about older people hating young people, have you not just done the same?

My advice is go lay down in a darkened room for a few days. Barking!

What a very odd response.

I've described for you a central tenet of Toryism.

Traditional Toryism that is, the current bunch of shites for souls don't have a philosophical concept between them.

Traditional Toryism is founded on the principle that individuals should first and foremost look out for themselves.

The lad at university I described was simply taking that to its logical conclusion

His take was that what might be good for society as a whole, was sub optimal for him personally.

Why are you getting so wound up about this? What do YOU think Toryism stands for?

[Bristol Red Rover]

What I hear from the above posts is how a kick ass attitude is important to be able to get on. I partly agree. Where this fails is first in creating a culture of selfishness - thanks Maggie and friends - and secondly in ignoring the creativity and energy in many people who are seriously disadvantaged. That costs everyone in benefit payments, health costs, policing, prisons, general societal chaos and destruction. Far better to see society values of support being valued, and effectively used. Overall, that is never a tory value. The tory value, the establishment value is, has always been,  divide and rule. Blame the disadvantaged, the ones not fitting into the militaristic values of the mainstream.

Starmers Labour is largely on board with that society selfishness story.

You should send this information to tory HQ where they will try and instigate a police investigation.

Sadly, police are dangerously under manned, and getting worst. Another policy of the Tories of deceiving the public whilst creating more social disharmony.

Tho if some of the lazy specialist departments took it on rather than sat in easy chairs watching TV then it could be worth it.

[danumdon]

DD.

Individuals looking after and out for themselves form the core of Toryism.

Who was it who said there's no such thing as society?

If you hear a great icon of Toryism saying that, it's drawing a line. You choose which side of it you want to live your life on. I'm very happy that I chose a different position.

So your doubling down on this!

Regardless what you think forms the core of Toryism your going to call out a whole tranche of society because "that's how you think they all are"

Tone deaf and tin eared comes to mind, and i don't think all Labour supporters are like you.

I'd say most people will think the best way to help someone is to make sure they have put themselves in a position to be able to help them first.

Who said, there's no such thing as society?

So let me get this straight, because some long dead politician said something that's debatable at best and batshit crazy at worst and this was reinforced to you by a Tory voter, you deem a large proportion of the population to be sub optimal or unworthy of your "high standards"

Wasn't it you just the other day talking about older people hating young people, have you not just done the same?

My advice is go lay down in a darkened room for a few days. Barking!

DD.

Individuals looking after and out for themselves form the core of Toryism.

Who was it who said there's no such thing as society?

If you hear a great icon of Toryism saying that, it's drawing a line. You choose which side of it you want to live your life on. I'm very happy that I chose a different position.

So your doubling down on this!

Regardless what you think forms the core of Toryism your going to call out a whole tranche of society because "that's how you think they all are"

Tone deaf and tin eared comes to mind, and i don't think all Labour supporters are like you.

I'd say most people will think the best way to help someone is to make sure they have put themselves in a position to be able to help them first.

Who said, there's no such thing as society?

So let me get this straight, because some long dead politician said something that's debatable at best and batshit crazy at worst and this was reinforced to you by a Tory voter, you deem a large proportion of the population to be sub optimal or unworthy of your "high standards"

Wasn't it you just the other day talking about older people hating young people, have you not just done the same?

My advice is go lay down in a darkened room for a few days. Barking!

What a very odd response.

I've described for you a central tenet of Toryism.

Traditional Toryism that is, the current bunch of shites for souls don't have a philosophical concept between them.

Traditional Toryism is founded on the principle that individuals should first and foremost look out for themselves.

The lad at university I described was simply taking that to its logical conclusion

His take was that what might be good for society as a whole, was sub optimal for him personally.

Why are you getting so wound up about this? What do YOU think Toryism stands for?

You just can't see it can you,your so engrossed in your lefty bubble.

I don't know if its news to you but the vast majority of people in this country don't live their lives by proclamations and tenets of political parties, regardless of who they may stick an X against in an election.

People will always do what they think is best for them and their families at any particular time. Lots of people in this borough voted Tory last election, after probably being Labour voters all their lives, there's a very good possibility that they will return to the Labour fold this time.

Are these the same people who you caricatured previously? did they forgo their Socialist instincts and gain " shites for souls who don't have a philosophical concept between them" ?

Sometimes you just have to put it down and get on with your life.

Life's just to short fella, take a deep breath and try it.

[i_ateallthepies]

Very difficult to equate a place like Doncaster with London. There could not be a more extreme example, especially when the period you are talking about is the early 80's.

London then was on the cusp of a construction revolution (Canary Wharf, DLR, ect) Doncaster was in the midst of an industrial meltdown.

Do you not think that the working class Tories you worked with were in the process of filling their boots while the going was good.

It may sound harsh but i would imagine plenty of them were thinking along the lines of "i'm getting stuck in, working hard and making a mint, why are others not doing the same"

We all know life's not as easy or straight forward as that for everyone but for someone in that environment, its very easy to see their thought processes.

I don't agree with your statement that they thought the could only do well if the rest of the country was crushed and put in its place.

The Tories great mantra at that time was Tebbit's "get on your bike" attitude to aspiring people for them to reap a benefit from moving to where the opportunities existed.

I did something similar to you in the 90's, the opportunities in my field were very restricted in Donny and i moved to London to benefit from the vastly increased opportunities. I worked with plenty of people with the same attitude you explained, all of them to a man(and woman|) were determined to strive and make something of themselves from what lay in front of them. They didn't want or need unions to work for them, they were motivated to do it themselves, and they did.

If anything its this attitude that needs to be reinforced into people today, a sense of reliance and belief in oneself to achieve and go onto make something of their careers.

I now work back in the North and work with plenty of youngsters entering our industry who have taken this outlook on board, they all know they are starting from a difficult base but are determined to progress and succeed. Their a credit to themselves and with this attitude they will go on and the world is their oyster.

We need to see this more in this day and age, don't wait for someone to tell you what you should do or can do, go out and show them what you will do.

You and i did it, no reason why more can't go on and achieve.

HA

Your second last paragraph. I had a similar experience when I went to university in 1985. Someone I got to know (not someone I'd consider a close friend, but he was interesting and fun) was a firm Tory supporter. We got talking about the idea of extending university opportunities to other kids. I gave examples of people I'd known at school who had razor sharp minds, but who, for whatever reason, had left school at 16 and never even thought of university as a possibility.

He said he was glad they didn't. Because it was in his interests to keep the pool of graduates as small as possible to maximise his own market value.

It was a genuine eye opener into how Tory minds operate. Both selfish AND profoundly damaging for the country and society as a whole.

It's a bit of a long shot to equate what is one persons thoughts onto a whole section of people.

Its a bit like saying that all people who vote Labour think the same as Billy Smith in Edlo, who's brought up his family of 8 and lived entirely on benefits for the whole duration.

That's not a reasonable thing to say and anyone of a sound and grounded mind would think so.

And that is exactly what you did in your post immediately before this.

[BillyStubbsTears]

DD.

Hang on.

I'm totally baffled now.

You started off berating me for drawing a lesson from what my old uni colleague believed and for saying that embodies Toryism.

No you're saying that EVERYONE thinks like that.

Are you having an argument with yourself here?