General Election

[danumdon]

Very difficult to equate a place like Doncaster with London. There could not be a more extreme example, especially when the period you are talking about is the early 80's.

London then was on the cusp of a construction revolution (Canary Wharf, DLR, ect) Doncaster was in the midst of an industrial meltdown.

Do you not think that the working class Tories you worked with were in the process of filling their boots while the going was good.

It may sound harsh but i would imagine plenty of them were thinking along the lines of "i'm getting stuck in, working hard and making a mint, why are others not doing the same"

We all know life's not as easy or straight forward as that for everyone but for someone in that environment, its very easy to see their thought processes.

I don't agree with your statement that they thought the could only do well if the rest of the country was crushed and put in its place.

The Tories great mantra at that time was Tebbit's "get on your bike" attitude to aspiring people for them to reap a benefit from moving to where the opportunities existed.

I did something similar to you in the 90's, the opportunities in my field were very restricted in Donny and i moved to London to benefit from the vastly increased opportunities. I worked with plenty of people with the same attitude you explained, all of them to a man(and woman|) were determined to strive and make something of themselves from what lay in front of them. They didn't want or need unions to work for them, they were motivated to do it themselves, and they did.

If anything its this attitude that needs to be reinforced into people today, a sense of reliance and belief in oneself to achieve and go onto make something of their careers.

I now work back in the North and work with plenty of youngsters entering our industry who have taken this outlook on board, they all know they are starting from a difficult base but are determined to progress and succeed. Their a credit to themselves and with this attitude they will go on and the world is their oyster.

We need to see this more in this day and age, don't wait for someone to tell you what you should do or can do, go out and show them what you will do.

You and i did it, no reason why more can't go on and achieve.

HA

Your second last paragraph. I had a similar experience when I went to university in 1985. Someone I got to know (not someone I'd consider a close friend, but he was interesting and fun) was a firm Tory supporter. We got talking about the idea of extending university opportunities to other kids. I gave examples of people I'd known at school who had razor sharp minds, but who, for whatever reason, had left school at 16 and never even thought of university as a possibility.

He said he was glad they didn't. Because it was in his interests to keep the pool of graduates as small as possible to maximise his own market value.

It was a genuine eye opener into how Tory minds operate. Both selfish AND profoundly damaging for the country and society as a whole.

It's a bit of a long shot to equate what is one persons thoughts onto a whole section of people.

Its a bit like saying that all people who vote Labour think the same as Billy Smith in Edlo, who's brought up his family of 8 and lived entirely on benefits for the whole duration.

That's not a reasonable thing to say and anyone of a sound and grounded mind would think so.

[/b]

And that is exactly what you did in your post immediately before this.

Jesus wept, are you as demented as the halfwit down under.

That "quote" was made up by me to demonstrate how stupid the quote from BST was, do you not see the paragraph underneath it that says,

"That's not a reasonable thing to say and anyone of a sound and grounded mind would think so."

If you don't understand that then i can't help you mate.

[i_ateallthepies]

Very difficult to equate a place like Doncaster with London. There could not be a more extreme example, especially when the period you are talking about is the early 80's.

London then was on the cusp of a construction revolution (Canary Wharf, DLR, ect) Doncaster was in the midst of an industrial meltdown.

Do you not think that the working class Tories you worked with were in the process of filling their boots while the going was good.

It may sound harsh but i would imagine plenty of them were thinking along the lines of "i'm getting stuck in, working hard and making a mint, why are others not doing the same"

We all know life's not as easy or straight forward as that for everyone but for someone in that environment, its very easy to see their thought processes.

I don't agree with your statement that they thought the could only do well if the rest of the country was crushed and put in its place.

The Tories great mantra at that time was Tebbit's "get on your bike" attitude to aspiring people for them to reap a benefit from moving to where the opportunities existed.

I did something similar to you in the 90's, the opportunities in my field were very restricted in Donny and i moved to London to benefit from the vastly increased opportunities. I worked with plenty of people with the same attitude you explained, all of them to a man(and woman|) were determined to strive and make something of themselves from what lay in front of them. They didn't want or need unions to work for them, they were motivated to do it themselves, and they did.

If anything its this attitude that needs to be reinforced into people today, a sense of reliance and belief in oneself to achieve and go onto make something of their careers.

I now work back in the North and work with plenty of youngsters entering our industry who have taken this outlook on board, they all know they are starting from a difficult base but are determined to progress and succeed. Their a credit to themselves and with this attitude they will go on and the world is their oyster.

We need to see this more in this day and age, don't wait for someone to tell you what you should do or can do, go out and show them what you will do.

You and i did it, no reason why more can't go on and achieve.

HA

Your second last paragraph. I had a similar experience when I went to university in 1985. Someone I got to know (not someone I'd consider a close friend, but he was interesting and fun) was a firm Tory supporter. We got talking about the idea of extending university opportunities to other kids. I gave examples of people I'd known at school who had razor sharp minds, but who, for whatever reason, had left school at 16 and never even thought of university as a possibility.

He said he was glad they didn't. Because it was in his interests to keep the pool of graduates as small as possible to maximise his own market value.

It was a genuine eye opener into how Tory minds operate. Both selfish AND profoundly damaging for the country and society as a whole.

It's a bit of a long shot to equate what is one persons thoughts onto a whole section of people.

Its a bit like saying that all people who vote Labour think the same as Billy Smith in Edlo, who's brought up his family of 8 and lived entirely on benefits for the whole duration.

That's not a reasonable thing to say and anyone of a sound and grounded mind would think so.

[/b]

And that is exactly what you did in your post immediately before this.

Jesus wept, are you as demented as the halfwit down under.

That "quote" was made up by me to demonstrate how stupid the quote from BST was, do you not see the paragraph underneath it that says,

"That's not a reasonable thing to say and anyone of a sound and grounded mind would think so."

If you don't understand that then i can't help you mate.

Piss weak defence.  Your earlier post was doing exactly what you was accusing BST for.

[danumdon]

DD.

Hang on.

I'm totally baffled now.

You started off berating me for drawing a lesson from what my old uni colleague believed and for saying that embodies Toryism.

No you're saying that EVERYONE thinks like that.

Are you having an argument with yourself here?

Seriously mate, i'm worried about your mental wellbeing.

If what i've just posted has you thinking this, then as above, i can't really help you.

[BillyStubbsTears]

DD

Let me explain in words of as few syllables as possible and see if you get the point.

1) The fundamental philosophical difference between politics of the (not extreme) right and left is this.

The Right believes that the over riding principle is that people should be responsible for their own outcomes.

The Left believes that we all have a responsibility for the good of society as a whole, not just ourselves and our families and friends.

Both arguments have merits and problems.

The ideal Right wing idea is predicated on the idea that with the freedom to do well, also comes responsibility to help people who through no fault of their own, are not able to succeed.

The left wing ideal is founded on the principle that in general, the basic ability to succeed is spread equally through the population, but that people born without advantage will always, always find it much harder to succeed than those born into successful environments. So you intervene to level the playing field.

In the real world of course, ideals don't exist.

The problem with the Left's approach is that you may disincentive hard work and reward failure.

The problem with the Right is that, in general, people DON'T look after anyone outside their immediate group, and people, given the opportunity, want to acquire as much as they can for them and theirs.

When Thatcher said, "There's no such thing as Society", she went on to say that there are only individuals, families and neighbouhoods. She was crisply and concisely describing the Right ideal. And for what it's worth, I think she did also believe in the responsibility that SHOULD impose on successful people to look after others.

But. They don't. Far more of them are like my old colleague. Selfish. Acquisitive. Uninterested in the problems of others, except when they scorn and blame the unsuccessful for their failure.

On balance, I prefer the failings of the other side. That's the side of the line I choose to be on. I don't hate Toryism because I'm left wing. I'm left wing because I hate Toryism.

Clear?

And by the way, if you can't make a point without repeated suggestions of the other person having mental issues, do yourself a favour and keep your trap shut, eh? It makes you look stupid and unpleasant, and I don't think you are either.

[Herbert Anchovy]

What I hear from the above posts is how a kick ass attitude is important to be able to get on. I partly agree. Where this fails is first in creating a culture of selfishness - thanks Maggie and friends - and secondly in ignoring the creativity and energy in many people who are seriously disadvantaged. That costs everyone in benefit payments, health costs, policing, prisons, general societal chaos and destruction. Far better to see society values of support being valued, and effectively used. Overall, that is never a tory value. The tory value, the establishment value is, has always been,  divide and rule. Blame the disadvantaged, the ones not fitting into the militaristic values of the mainstream.

Starmers Labour is largely on board with that society selfishness story.

I absolutely agree with much of this. I support the encouragement of a 'get up and go' attitude but I also feel that a governments has a responsibility to support those who, for whatever reason, are unable to do this.

This is where Tory and Labour differ in my experience.

In the 80's the Tory government gave virtually nothing to support those affected by their policies apart from advice to get on your bike and find work. In the 90's Labour created the 'New Deal' and 'Sure Start' schemes. I saw this Sure Start scheme in action for myself just how it helped young people and it was an travesty when it was scrapped.

[Ldr]

DD

Let me explain in words of as few syllables as possible and see if you get the point.

1) The fundamental philosophical difference between politics of the (not extreme) right and left is this.

The Right believes that the over riding principle is that people should be responsible for their own outcomes.

The Left believes that we all have a responsibility for the good of society as a whole, not just ourselves and our families and friends.

Both arguments have merits and problems.

The ideal Right wing idea is predicated on the idea that with the freedom to do well, also comes responsibility to help people who through no fault of their own, are not able to succeed.

The left wing ideal is founded on the principle that in general, the basic ability to succeed is spread equally through the population, but that people born without advantage will always, always find it much harder to succeed than those born into successful environments. So you intervene to level the playing field.

In the real world of course, ideals don't exist.

The problem with the Left's approach is that you may disincentive hard work and reward failure.

The problem with the Right is that, in general, people DON'T look after anyone outside their immediate group, and people, given the opportunity, want to acquire as much as they can for them and theirs.

When Thatcher said, "There's no such thing as Society", she went on to say that there are only individuals, families and neighbouhoods. She was crisply and concisely describing the Right ideal. And for what it's worth, I think she did also believe in the responsibility that SHOULD impose on successful people to look after others.

But. They don't. Far more of them are like my old colleague. Selfish. Acquisitive. Uninterested in the problems of others, except when they scorn and blame the unsuccessful for their failure.

On balance, I prefer the failings of the other side. That's the side of the line I choose to be on. I don't hate Toryism because I'm left wing. I'm left wing because I hate Toryism.

Clear?

And by the way, if you can't make a point without repeated suggestions of the other person having mental issues, do yourself a favour and keep your trap shut, eh? It makes you look stupid and unpleasant, and I don't think you are either.

A well written post

[BillyStubbsTears]

DD.

Individuals looking after and out for themselves form the core of Toryism.

Who was it who said there's no such thing as society?

If you hear a great icon of Toryism saying that, it's drawing a line. You choose which side of it you want to live your life on. I'm very happy that I chose a different position.

What do you make of Terry Brammall?

I think he's one of the better ones.

Why do you ask?

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

DD.

Individuals looking after and out for themselves form the core of Toryism.

Who was it who said there's no such thing as society?

If you hear a great icon of Toryism saying that, it's drawing a line. You choose which side of it you want to live your life on. I'm very happy that I chose a different position.

What do you make of Terry Brammall?

I think he's one of the better ones.

Why do you ask?

You're pushing the tories are all in it for themselves line on a forum of a club owned and funded by a Tory donor, you simply can't generalise as you have been, it's like saying everyone on benefits doesn't want to work or criticising Rwanda but wearing your team's shirt that has visit Rwanda as a key sponsor.

[SydneyRover]

DD.

Individuals looking after and out for themselves form the core of Toryism.

Who was it who said there's no such thing as society?

If you hear a great icon of Toryism saying that, it's drawing a line. You choose which side of it you want to live your life on. I'm very happy that I chose a different position.

What do you make of Terry Brammall?

I think he's one of the better ones.

Why do you ask?

You're pushing the tories are all in it for themselves line on a forum of a club owned and funded by a Tory donor, you simply can't generalise as you have been, it's like saying everyone on benefits doesn't want to work or criticising Rwanda but wearing your team's shirt that has visit Rwanda as a key sponsor.

I've read posts from your good self saying exactly that pud 'my family comes first'

It could have been tempered by something such as 'I would want the government to look after those in need of food, housing, a job, medical care etc" then my family comes first.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Nah not for me Sydney, firmly in the my kids first other stuff second and that won't change. Thankfully life isn't binary it's not one or the other and both work fine.

[Sprotyrover]

DD

Let me explain in words of as few syllables as possible and see if you get the point.

1) The fundamental philosophical difference between politics of the (not extreme) right and left is this.

The Right believes that the over riding principle is that people should be responsible for their own outcomes.

The Left believes that we all have a responsibility for the good of society as a whole, not just ourselves and our families and friends.

Both arguments have merits and problems.

The ideal Right wing idea is predicated on the idea that with the freedom to do well, also comes responsibility to help people who through no fault of their own, are not able to succeed.

The left wing ideal is founded on the principle that in general, the basic ability to succeed is spread equally through the population, but that people born without advantage will always, always find it much harder to succeed than those born into successful environments. So you intervene to level the playing field.

In the real world of course, ideals don't exist.

The problem with the Left's approach is that you may disincentive hard work and reward failure.

The problem with the Right is that, in general, people DON'T look after anyone outside their immediate group, and people, given the opportunity, want to acquire as much as they can for them and theirs.

When Thatcher said, "There's no such thing as Society", she went on to say that there are only individuals, families and neighbouhoods. She was crisply and concisely describing the Right ideal. And for what it's worth, I think she did also believe in the responsibility that SHOULD impose on successful people to look after others.

But. They don't. Far more of them are like my old colleague. Selfish. Acquisitive. Uninterested in the problems of others, except when they scorn and blame the unsuccessful for their failure.

On balance, I prefer the failings of the other side. That's the side of the line I choose to be on. I don't hate Toryism because I'm left wing. I'm left wing because I hate Toryism.

Clear?

And by the way, if you can't make a point without repeated suggestions of the other person having mental issues, do yourself a favour and keep your trap shut, eh? It makes you look stupid and unpleasant, and I don't think you are either.

I think you need help with your Mental health too Billy!

[BillyStubbsTears]

DD

Let me explain in words of as few syllables as possible and see if you get the point.

1) The fundamental philosophical difference between politics of the (not extreme) right and left is this.

The Right believes that the over riding principle is that people should be responsible for their own outcomes.

The Left believes that we all have a responsibility for the good of society as a whole, not just ourselves and our families and friends.

Both arguments have merits and problems.

The ideal Right wing idea is predicated on the idea that with the freedom to do well, also comes responsibility to help people who through no fault of their own, are not able to succeed.

The left wing ideal is founded on the principle that in general, the basic ability to succeed is spread equally through the population, but that people born without advantage will always, always find it much harder to succeed than those born into successful environments. So you intervene to level the playing field.

In the real world of course, ideals don't exist.

The problem with the Left's approach is that you may disincentive hard work and reward failure.

The problem with the Right is that, in general, people DON'T look after anyone outside their immediate group, and people, given the opportunity, want to acquire as much as they can for them and theirs.

When Thatcher said, "There's no such thing as Society", she went on to say that there are only individuals, families and neighbouhoods. She was crisply and concisely describing the Right ideal. And for what it's worth, I think she did also believe in the responsibility that SHOULD impose on successful people to look after others.

But. They don't. Far more of them are like my old colleague. Selfish. Acquisitive. Uninterested in the problems of others, except when they scorn and blame the unsuccessful for their failure.

On balance, I prefer the failings of the other side. That's the side of the line I choose to be on. I don't hate Toryism because I'm left wing. I'm left wing because I hate Toryism.

Clear?

And by the way, if you can't make a point without repeated suggestions of the other person having mental issues, do yourself a favour and keep your trap shut, eh? It makes you look stupid and unpleasant, and I don't think you are either.

I think you need help with your Mental health too Billy!

Can we do something about this please?

[SydneyRover]

It's bloody amazing the tories sure know how to create a diversion from their maladministration of the UK economy. Make up a stories and all the political lap dogs run around yapping away, repeating the rubbish, getting angry and accusing and abusing those that can actually tell the difference between shit and clay.

On top of that when they are called out they double down and make it worse.

[SydneyRover]

77 and counting

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainer/mps-standing-down-next-election#:~:text=next%20general%20election.-,How%20many%20MPs%20are%20standing%20down%20at%20the%20next%20election,at%20the%20next%20general%20election.

[normal rules]

This is quite normal when a party has been in power for a while. And expect defeat at a GE. The 2010 election saw almost 150 MPs stand down, mainly from the Labour Party, which had been in power since 1997. It’s the circle of political life .

[SydneyRover]

The 77 are all tory nr

[normal rules]

The 77 are all tory nr

I can read ty. 100 Labour mps stood down in 2010.

[danumdon]

If we'd of had a PR system i would imagine the broad church that is both Labour and Tory would of ensured that a good proportion of the 567 seats would of been split between more than the two parties.

Its interesting to see the quite wide divisions that we have in both main parties ranging from Looney left to extreme right.

Its always clear that a great many struggle to sign up fully to their parties official line. It would be good to see if any had the courage of their own convictions and did something about it.

Should all of these loose cannons still be rattling around in their respective parties, i'd say its an affront to their electorate when they win the seat under the party line but then spend the next 5 years pushing their own agenda.

Is this not false representation?

[Sprotyrover]

The 77 are all tory nr

Why are you so interested in our business! You come across as a Billy no mates Whingeing Pomm?

[SydneyRover]

The 77 are all tory nr

Why are you so interested in our business! You come across as a Billy no mates Whingeing Pomm?

Cos I'm Bwitish snotty

[Ldr]

The 77 are all tory nr

Why are you so interested in our business! You come across as a Billy no mates Whingeing Pomm?

Cos I'm Bwitish snotty

Why leave then instead of working to better the country?

[SydneyRover]

The 77 are all tory nr

Why are you so interested in our business! You come across as a Billy no mates Whingeing Pomm?

Cos I'm Bwitish snotty

Why leave then instead of working to better the country?

Why leave Donny instead of staying to improve the City and County?

[Ldr]

The 77 are all tory nr

Why are you so interested in our business! You come across as a Billy no mates Whingeing Pomm?

Cos I'm Bwitish snotty

Why leave then instead of working to better the country?

Why leave Donny instead of staying to improve the City and County?

For better prospects. Please note though I do not insist on involving myself greatly in politics in Doncaster or expect to cast a vote in local elections in Doncaster which would effect people living there . I also make no bones that my family situation comes before society to me. I don’t do what’s right for my family whilst insinuating that society comes first

[SydneyRover]

Great

[Ldr]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5114q1x09eo

Clearing house?

[Sprotyrover]

The 77 are all tory nr

Why are you so interested in our business! You come across as a Billy no mates Whingeing Pomm?

Cos I'm Bwitish snotty

So that shitty speech you made back in 2006 on the South Country was another load of twaddle forsaking your country and all that as we had gone to the dogs!
For gods sake don’t tell us they deported you back here?

[SydneyRover]

The 77 are all tory nr

Why are you so interested in our business! You come across as a Billy no mates Whingeing Pomm?

Cos I'm Bwitish snotty

So that shitty speech you made back in 2006 on the South Country was another load of twaddle forsaking your country and all that as we had gone to the dogs!
For gods sake don’t tell us they deported you back here?

Not sure what you are on about, but that's not unusual.

You appear to be the local expert on dogs and dogging, snotty

[IDM]

Mods, please.!!!  This personal stuff is getting in the way of reasoned debate..

[Sprotyrover]

The 77 are all tory nr

Why are you so interested in our business! You come across as a Billy no mates Whingeing Pomm?

Cos I'm Bwitish snotty

So that shitty speech you made back in 2006 on the South Country was another load of twaddle forsaking your country and all that as we had gone to the dogs!
For gods sake don’t tell us they deported you back here?

Not sure what you are on about, but that's not unusual.

You appear to be the local expert on dogs and dogging, snotty

You appear to be the local expert on dogs and dogging, snotty

Would you care to explain yourself?

[Bristol Red Rover]

The 77 are all tory nr

How many Labour MPs have been stood down by the Labour central office, and even against the local party members wishes? And what is the connection between them?