General Election

[Ldr]

Doesn't this sum up the shite, childish attitude of our media to politics?

https://x.com/PippaCrerar/status/1801207591894147367

A generation of f**king w**k political journalists who think there job is to make politics into some sort of light entertainment cack.

And then complain when we get w**k entertainers for politicians.

And THEN complain when someone just tries to like... y'know...just competent at the job.

God knows I don't agree with everything Starmer has done and I DO think he is being too under ambitious.

But a boring, sober, steady hand will feel like the first step on the road back to a functional country after the play centre politics of the past decade.

Steady and stable is what’s needed atm, not fireworks

[Iberian Red]

There isn’t much scope for Labours very modest plans, no Piggy Banks to plunder, it’s going to be even austerity
I might decide to make a few Bob chasing Tax Dodgers that job is just up my street!

Tax expats more, no representation without taxation!!

Very hypocritical, the other week you were saying people should only vote where they pay tax ans Social Security!!!!!

It's a great slogan tho,sounds like something from the student(singular) union tory party piss up.

Deliberately paraphrasing the American revolution Iberian. Yes people should only vote where they pay tax so expats should pay here to vote here, I’m been consistent there

I am familiar with where it came from.

[Ldr]

There isn’t much scope for Labours very modest plans, no Piggy Banks to plunder, it’s going to be even austerity
I might decide to make a few Bob chasing Tax Dodgers that job is just up my street!

Tax expats more, no representation without taxation!!

Very hypocritical, the other week you were saying people should only vote where they pay tax ans Social Security!!!!!

It's a great slogan tho,sounds like something from the student(singular) union tory party piss up.

Deliberately paraphrasing the American revolution Iberian. Yes people should only vote where they pay tax so expats should pay here to vote here, I’m been consistent there

I am familiar with where it came from.

Thought you would be tbh

[Iberian Red]

Doesn't this sum up the shite, childish attitude of our media to politics?

https://x.com/PippaCrerar/status/1801207591894147367

A generation of f**king w**k political journalists who think there job is to make politics into some sort of light entertainment cack.

And then complain when we get w**k entertainers for politicians.

And THEN complain when someone just tries to like... y'know...just competent at the job.

God knows I don't agree with everything Starmer has done and I DO think he is being too under ambitious.

But a boring, sober, steady hand will feel like the first step on the road back to a functional country after the play centre politics of the past decade.

Fair play to Boris this BST.
He was the best we've ever had at the w#nk entertainers game.
He is without doubt the biggest w@#ker elected to Parliament.

[BobG]

Right back to his schooldays... The evidence is easy to find: a liar, a selfish self promoter, a conspirator in illegality, a bombast. There has never, ever been any doubt about his unfitness for any public office.

BobG

[ncRover]

Reform just overtook Conservatives in the latest YouGov poll. Has the sinking ship just hit tipping point?

[BillyStubbsTears]

This is exactly the reason why Labour has to occupy the centre ground.

It's looking more and more like Farage has dealt the knockout blow to this version of the Tory party. And he's already talking about a merger after the election with him as leader.

I've been saying for months that if that happens, which way the centrist Tory voters jump will determine the medium term future of this country.

The Left aren't going to want to hear this, but there just aren't enough votes on the Left to keep out a right wing party if RefUK and the usual Tory voters join forces. If Labour can keep just a tenth or a fifth of normal Tory voters from jumping into bed with Farage, then he can be kept out.

[ncRover]

BST

Would you say that Labour are currently to the right of the Lib Dems looking at the manifestos?

[BillyStubbsTears]

LD manifestos mean less than nothing.

Clegg campaigned in 2010 on the line that they were well to the left of Labour.

Then immediately signed up to the most ridiculous and damaging right wing ideological economic policy since the War.

They know they will never form a Govt on their own, so they can promise whatever they want in a manifesto. The problem comes, as Clegg found out, when you go into coalition supporting everything you said you were dead against.

[SydneyRover]

''The Telegraph newspaper has received a warning shot from the Electoral Commission after promoting a series of ads on Meta (as well as X) that read as anti-Labour attack stories.

The right-wing outlet is running ads warning of “disaster” if Labour is elected and introduces VAT on private school fees.

On the 28th May, a few days after Sunak announced the snap election, the paper spent at least £500 promoting a piece: “Learn why Labour’s plans for private school fees could spell disaster.”

The day after, another ad ran, reaching around a million people. It was an interview with PM Sunak leading on his claim that he and Boris Johnson “were in touch the other day, talking about the risk that Starmer would pose to our country’s security”. Over £1,000 was spent'' ....... cont'

https://bylinetimes.com/2024/06/13/telegraph-pours-thousands-of-pounds-pushing-anti-labour-stories-on-social-media/

[tyke1962]

This is exactly the reason why Labour has to occupy the centre ground.

It's looking more and more like Farage has dealt the knockout blow to this version of the Tory party. And he's already talking about a merger after the election with him as leader.

I've been saying for months that if that happens, which way the centrist Tory voters jump will determine the medium term future of this country.

The Left aren't going to want to hear this, but there just aren't enough votes on the Left to keep out a right wing party if RefUK and the usual Tory voters join forces. If Labour can keep just a tenth or a fifth of normal Tory voters from jumping into bed with Farage, then he can be kept out.

That's only half the story Billy , I'm not looking for a quarrel by the way .

Labour have to put money in the pockets of people who will be attracted to vote for New Conservatism .

They have to make their lives better .

It's not simply enough to woo centrist Tory voters .

I warned about New Conservatism a month or two back on here and they could be formidable with Farage capturing the lower paid vote .

I said watch that bloody Braverman , these feckers can't be underestimated .

Throw in some Douglas Murray's and Matt Goodwin's for good measure and you've got a problem .

If these feckers win in 2029 you know whose put them there don't you Billy ?

One elected Starmer needs to up his game not park the bus .

[DonnyOsmond]

LD manifestos mean less than nothing.

Clegg campaigned in 2010 on the line that they were well to the left of Labour.

Then immediately signed up to the most ridiculous and damaging right wing ideological economic policy since the War.

They know they will never form a Govt on their own, so they can promise whatever they want in a manifesto. The problem comes, as Clegg found out, when you go into coalition supporting everything you said you were dead against.

Is that a yes or a no?

[BillyStubbsTears]

LD manifestos mean less than nothing.

Clegg campaigned in 2010 on the line that they were well to the left of Labour.

Then immediately signed up to the most ridiculous and damaging right wing ideological economic policy since the War.

They know they will never form a Govt on their own, so they can promise whatever they want in a manifesto. The problem comes, as Clegg found out, when you go into coalition supporting everything you said you were dead against.

Is that a yes or a no?

It's a "That's a non-question because no-one knows how right or left the LDs are till they have to decide."

Sorry, I thought I'd made that clear.

[Bristol Red Rover]

BST

Would you say that Labour are currently to the right of the Lib Dems looking at the manifestos?

There is no doubt about that. Whilst the details of LD policies may or may not be fully worked out, neither are Labour's or the Tory's. What really counts is where they are coming from because as real life happens, the adjustments are based on exactly that - barring a mass screw up of the economy. But then the Greens are the ones owning the socialist ground.

[ncRover]

LD manifestos mean less than nothing.

Clegg campaigned in 2010 on the line that they were well to the left of Labour.

Then immediately signed up to the most ridiculous and damaging right wing ideological economic policy since the War.

They know they will never form a Govt on their own, so they can promise whatever they want in a manifesto. The problem comes, as Clegg found out, when you go into coalition supporting everything you said you were dead against.

Is that a yes or a no?

It's a "That's a non-question because no-one knows how right or left the LDs are till they have to decide."

Sorry, I thought I'd made that clear.

And I made my question (not a non-question) pretty clear. I also said “looking at the manifestos” not “looking at what Nick Clegg did 10 years ago in a coalition where he was outnumbered by 305 to 57”.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Watching the TV debate - Farage is managing to get progressively thicker, whilst Reform are getting higher in the polls, and he personally is apparently the most popular leader in the country right now. Bonkers.

[Bentley Bullet]

Watching the TV debate - Farage is managing to get progressively thicker, whilst Reform are getting higher in the polls, and he personally is apparently the most popular leader in the country right now. Bonkers.

That might be your opinion, but many people, including me, will disagree with you regarding his performance.

Love him or loathe him he was very convincing putting his points across.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Watching the TV debate - Farage is managing to get progressively thicker, whilst Reform are getting higher in the polls, and he personally is apparently the most popular leader in the country right now. Bonkers.

That might be your opinion, but many people, including me, will disagree with you regarding his performance.

Love him or loathe him he was very convincing putting his points across.

About as convincing as Johnson, so yep, you're probably on board.

He lied about the comparison with the French healthcare system - the French pay more. He changed his party's policy on the fly about the two child benefit cap. He brought everything down to migration. He's got a nonsense, and clearly uncosted, policy of no tax until £20k. I'm waiting for his pledge on a bus.

Populist tripe to the last. Is that your diet?

[BillyStubbsTears]

LD manifestos mean less than nothing.

Clegg campaigned in 2010 on the line that they were well to the left of Labour.

Then immediately signed up to the most ridiculous and damaging right wing ideological economic policy since the War.

They know they will never form a Govt on their own, so they can promise whatever they want in a manifesto. The problem comes, as Clegg found out, when you go into coalition supporting everything you said you were dead against.

Is that a yes or a no?

It's a "That's a non-question because no-one knows how right or left the LDs are till they have to decide."

Sorry, I thought I'd made that clear.

And I made my question (not a non-question) pretty clear. I also said “looking at the manifestos” not “looking at what Nick Clegg did 10 years ago in a coalition where he was outnumbered by 305 to 57”.

And I'm telling you it's a non-question because the LD manifesto is literally meaningless.

You CAN'T just ignore the one time in the last century that that has been demonstrated. Of COURSE the LDs want to paint themselves as further to the left than Labour. That means nothing about what they would actually do if that was put to the test.

Your question is identical to this one.

You've got grey paint. A shop is selling tins that say white paint but the last time you bought one, it was black when you opened it. Is your paint whiter than the "white" one?

[BillyStubbsTears]

The point is that the LD's entire strategy is based on APPEARING to be more left wing than Labour to try and grab some votes of disillusioned Labour voters.

The Greens are trying to do the same thing by saying they'd have a massive programme of increased public spending and increase the overall tax take by 3-4% of GDP, at a time when we already have the highest tax take since the War.

They can both do that to grab votes off Labour while knowing there's zero chance of having to put that into action.

[albie]

It is perfectly possible to advocate for tax changes to raise revenue by taking a greater proportion from the wealthy, either via assets or earnings, and reducing the tax pressure on the least well off. These are not mutually exclusive options.

Sadly, Labour no longer supports the use of the tax system for a progressive redistribution.
The word redistribution did not feature in the manifesto launch, which tells you how far into the pit of deplorable objectives Labour have fallen.

Growth is to provide a pathway to a better future, but Labour cannot find the resources to pump prime that growth.
It will come from the private sector, the unicorns have advised.

No revisions will be made to the tax system changes already set in place by the Tories.
The consequence will be reduced public spending in unprotected sectors, such as criminal justice.

Austerity it is then, despite what Keith and Rachel say.
With a bit of luck, there might be some incidental "trickle down", like in the Thatcherite playbook.

Economically illiterate drivel, from people who have no core values to support the interests of working class folk, just cheerleading for corporate sponsors.
Just know what you are voting for!

[BobG]

Thank you Albie. I am going to keep that analysis close by me. It's clarity and incisiveness are valuable.

BobG

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

This is exactly the reason why Labour has to occupy the centre ground.

It's looking more and more like Farage has dealt the knockout blow to this version of the Tory party. And he's already talking about a merger after the election with him as leader.

I've been saying for months that if that happens, which way the centrist Tory voters jump will determine the medium term future of this country.

The Left aren't going to want to hear this, but there just aren't enough votes on the Left to keep out a right wing party if RefUK and the usual Tory voters join forces. If Labour can keep just a tenth or a fifth of normal Tory voters from jumping into bed with Farage, then he can be kept out.

I think the overall majority are in the central portion be that centre right or left.  Farage just is not going to attract those conservatives who are not particularly right wing just as labour under Starmer aren't going to attract the left if their policies remain unchanged ( I suspect they'll move left post election again).

We appear to keep pushing these parties with a coalition of policies and wings, we seem unable to have true principled parties that you can really get behind.

Let's be honest labour or Tories, the policies announced mean very little change for any of us. Labour will win by being not the Tories, the Tory leadership is a joke and the other parties are just protesting.

Farage is a real danger in future, he's got that knack of pulling in the left and right with his policies, but I still don't see it's strong enough to attract the vast majority in the centre, unless labour massively struggle (and I feel they are going to find it very hard).

[Herbert Anchovy]

This is exactly the reason why Labour has to occupy the centre ground.

It's looking more and more like Farage has dealt the knockout blow to this version of the Tory party. And he's already talking about a merger after the election with him as leader.

I've been saying for months that if that happens, which way the centrist Tory voters jump will determine the medium term future of this country.

The Left aren't going to want to hear this, but there just aren't enough votes on the Left to keep out a right wing party if RefUK and the usual Tory voters join forces. If Labour can keep just a tenth or a fifth of normal Tory voters from jumping into bed with Farage, then he can be kept out.

I think the overall majority are in the central portion be that centre right or left.  Farage just is not going to attract those conservatives who are not particularly right wing just as labour under Starmer aren't going to attract the left if their policies remain unchanged ( I suspect they'll move left post election again).

We appear to keep pushing these parties with a coalition of policies and wings, we seem unable to have true principled parties that you can really get behind.

Let's be honest labour or Tories, the policies announced mean very little change for any of us. Labour will win by being not the Tories, the Tory leadership is a joke and the other parties are just protesting.

Farage is a real danger in future, he's got that knack of pulling in the left and right with his policies, but I still don't see it's strong enough to attract the vast majority in the centre, unless labour massively struggle (and I feel they are going to find it very hard).

I think that during their first term, it's going to be all about creating a steady ship for Labour. However, there are some key differences that make them stand out from the Tories for me. For example VAT on private schools and a commitment to supporting food sustainability are different from what the Tories intend to do.

[Mike_F]

It's disappointing that you write off the LD manifesto so readily, BST. I mentioned before that I believe the current LD party to be closer to the Labour Party of John Smith than the current iteration of the Labour Party are.

Was I pissed off with the way the Clegg administration conceded their flagship policy? Absolutely, yes. It was as clear as the nose on your face that the Tories were going to give a few soft wins on policies that were very much under the radar on the condition that they could harpoon the one issue that most LD voters of the day cared about. Does that mean the current party and its manifesto are irrelevant? Absolutely not.

You've been extremely critical of some of the policies that Jeremy Corbyn would've implemented had he won a GE (I can think of several times that you've said how disastrous his foreign and defence policies would've been). By your logic of "Look what happened ten years ago" I could just as easily say "Look what Labour were saying five years ago" but I'm not going to say that because as we both know, things change, society moves on, macro-economic conditions dictate necessary evolution of policy and the rise of the far right as a knee-jerk reaction to the disillusionment felt by the public at large necessitates a different way of doing politics.

On the question of what the panellists would each do to restore trust in politicians, Daisy Cooper's response was easily the best received last night. If we want to make people feel vlaued and included by their government we need to make changes and that would go a long way towards quashing the groundswell of populist support for right-wing loons like Farage.


Edited to add: As I've stated previously that I'm a LD member it would be easy to say "Well of course you take that position because they're your party." But on the contrary, they're my party because I take that position and they best reflect it. I joined after Clegg's destruction of the party because I wanted to help rebuild a progressive centre-left option from the ashes left behind.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

This is exactly the reason why Labour has to occupy the centre ground.

It's looking more and more like Farage has dealt the knockout blow to this version of the Tory party. And he's already talking about a merger after the election with him as leader.

I've been saying for months that if that happens, which way the centrist Tory voters jump will determine the medium term future of this country.

The Left aren't going to want to hear this, but there just aren't enough votes on the Left to keep out a right wing party if RefUK and the usual Tory voters join forces. If Labour can keep just a tenth or a fifth of normal Tory voters from jumping into bed with Farage, then he can be kept out.

I think the overall majority are in the central portion be that centre right or left.  Farage just is not going to attract those conservatives who are not particularly right wing just as labour under Starmer aren't going to attract the left if their policies remain unchanged ( I suspect they'll move left post election again).

We appear to keep pushing these parties with a coalition of policies and wings, we seem unable to have true principled parties that you can really get behind.

Let's be honest labour or Tories, the policies announced mean very little change for any of us. Labour will win by being not the Tories, the Tory leadership is a joke and the other parties are just protesting.

Farage is a real danger in future, he's got that knack of pulling in the left and right with his policies, but I still don't see it's strong enough to attract the vast majority in the centre, unless labour massively struggle (and I feel they are going to find it very hard).

I think that during their first term, it's going to be all about creating a steady ship for Labour. However, there are some key differences that make them stand out from the Tories for me. For example VAT on private schools and a commitment to supporting food sustainability are different from what the Tories intend to do.

Yep I get that, but 99% of people on the ground aren't going to notice any of that are they?  How do Labour make it noticeable so that people do see that they've offered the change they are pushing?  I think that's very difficult.

[selby]

  BRR you are calling Farage thick , Wow, I bet the most influential politician of our times is flabbergasted, I know I am, knowing that someone can underestimate someone so much.
  That even this early in the day is the joke of the day

[Mike_F]

Unfortunately, he's far from thick. He is an accomplished public speaker and he knows exactly how to present his Machiavellian schemes with enough veneer of acceptability to persuade turkeys to vote for Christmas.

[ncRover]

The point is that the LD's entire strategy is based on APPEARING to be more left wing than Labour to try and grab some votes of disillusioned Labour voters.

The Greens are trying to do the same thing by saying they'd have a massive programme of increased public spending and increase the overall tax take by 3-4% of GDP, at a time when we already have the highest tax take since the War.

They can both do that to grab votes off Labour while knowing there's zero chance of having to put that into action.

The LD plans are nowhere near as crazy as the green’s yet you lump them together because you’re in canvassing mode.

Greens want to scale down nuclear power and deterrent because they are both ‘unsafe’ to them. Germany did that now have to burn coal. Getting rid of trident jeopardises everything.

They want rent controls while having a “world without borders” and only building half the new homes that Labour and LD are promising because they won’t build on the green belt. Subsidising demand rather than sorting out supply.

They want to ban domestic flights but generally oppose new rail developments.

They want to put massive pressure on small businesses by introducing a £15 minimum wage. This would lead to bankruptcies, job losses and lots more people on their cushty universal income.

Their tax propositions would lead to businesses simply leaving the country. Tax rises on those earning £50k per year too. There’s a cost of living for people like that with mortgages too.

They evidently think de-growth is justified but that never solves any issues. I’m surprised they are doing so well on this site’s poll.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I couldn't agree more about the Greens NC.

My point is that neither they nor the LDs will be in a position to have to implement their policies. So they are shaping their policies in a way that attracts as many voters as possible.

I'm not canvassing by the way.