This Country is a Joke

[BillyStubbsTears]

MrFrost wrote:

What's your take BST on the scenario I spoke about earlier regarding the Muslim lad and his English girlfriend? I'd actually be interested in your opinion.

What was your comment? I can't find it.

[BobG]

Oh dear. Come on. I'm trying to offer you some well meaning and well considered advice. I've had more than half a lifetime of experience in this sort of thing. It's no shame to anyone on here that I have more than most (though not all I'm happy to say!) And althougth I say it myself, I'm quite good at it as well. So if you want to improve your performance, your successes, your capabilities, look at the wider picture I'm trying to paint. if you don't want to do that, fine. Pick on little details in that wider picture seeking to gain a momentary satisfaction. But you'll never convince anybody, ever, of anything, if you choose to go down that route.

There are 6 pages to this thread now. Probably two thirds of them are devoted to many, many people trying to explain to you why what you keep on saying is b*llocks. If you can't see that, then I was mistaken, sadly. Please, recognise the message in the fact that, as you said, you 'don't see other 'right wing types' posting'. That is a vitally important lesson for you, if you'll only accept it as such.

Cheers

BobG

[MrFrost]

BillyStubbsTears wrote:

MrFrost wrote:

What's your take BST on the scenario I spoke about earlier regarding the Muslim lad and his English girlfriend? I'd actually be interested in your opinion.

What was your comment? I can't find it.

My post was:

I know a lass pretty well who started seeing a Muslim chap. She is a white English girl. She ended up getting pregnant and having a little boy. Now, he is absolutely terrified of telling his parents as they are strict muslims, and obviously this goes against their religion. He has decided he wont tell his folks and try and keep the kid a secret forever.
Now in a land where freedom and democracy is part of our culture, how is this right. This muslim lad has no freedom. He is bound by a set of rules that sets out what he can and cant do. In my opinion, there is no room for this way of life in our country.
The lad has been brought up in a Western world, and God knows what his parents would do if they found out. Would they turn the other cheek, I very much doubt it. But what do they expect? What do people expect to happen living in a Western country. This isn't a dig at Muslims, but it highlights the problems we face of living in society together with such vastly different beliefs and ways of life. It is naive to think we can live together in perfect harmony.

[wilts rover]

BillyStubbsTears wrote:

Remind me again, cos I forget easily. I've asked this one a dozen times but I can never remember any of the multitude of well thought-out answers:

What IS \"our culture\" exactly?

In my opinion, which is worth absolutely nothing at all, the one thing that defines 'our' British culture and Britisness, is a tradition of welcoming and giving a safe haven to strangers/people from countries and cultures different to ours.

Following Edward I expelling the Jews in 1290 (until Cromwell welcomed them and their money back in 1656, which ultimately led to financing overseas trade and the growth of the Empire for the next 350 years) no group of people have been refused entry to Britain, and a heck of a lot have come. Yes there have been individual cases of intolerance and conflict, the Dutch in the Isle of Axholme to pick a local example, anti-Irish feeling that lasted from 1850 to the end of the 1960's, but we have been able to integrate and tolerate immigrants to such an extent that Karl Marx and Napoleon III were living here at the same time.

The results of this are an ever changing society, habits and traditions but the culture is of tolerance.

[nice one rovers]

MrFrost wrote:

You have to ask the question why he had 7 children without the means to provide for his family. Maybe because he knew the state would pay for it all?
I've got a young family, work 13 hours a day alot of the time. The Mrs works aswell. We have to pay our rent, bills, childcare. We don't have the luxury of housing benefit and it is a fcucking struggle.
You take people like this guy, he has worked for a few years granted, but spat out kids to fund his mod cons and his now luxourious pad.

Our Poor old nanna's who died without a penny to their names kept on pumping babies out with no obvious means of paying for their upbringing.

[Barmby Rover]

MrFrost wrote:

BillyStubbsTears wrote:

MrFrost wrote:

What's your take BST on the scenario I spoke about earlier regarding the Muslim lad and his English girlfriend? I'd actually be interested in your opinion.

What was your comment? I can't find it.

My post was:

I know a lass pretty well who started seeing a Muslim chap. She is a white English girl. She ended up getting pregnant and having a little boy. Now, he is absolutely terrified of telling his parents as they are strict muslims, and obviously this goes against their religion. He has decided he wont tell his folks and try and keep the kid a secret forever.
Now in a land where freedom and democracy is part of our culture, how is this right. This muslim lad has no freedom. He is bound by a set of rules that sets out what he can and cant do. In my opinion, there is no room for this way of life in our country.
The lad has been brought up in a Western world, and God knows what his parents would do if they found out. Would they turn the other cheek, I very much doubt it. But what do they expect? What do people expect to happen living in a Western country. This isn't a dig at Muslims, but it highlights the problems we face of living in society together with such vastly different beliefs and ways of life. It is naive to think we can live together in perfect harmony.

So different to our own culture isn't it? When I worked on the manor estate and a lass became pregnant the irate father of the girl literally went hunting for the poor lad with two bricks to do unspeakable harm to him, so much so that he ran away from home for several months. It depends upon not only religious \"culture \" as you term it but how the family culture,regional culture or even an individuals interpretation of his \"culture\" as to how they react when presented with a situation.Having met quite  lot of the Muslims who live in Sheffield over the past two years or so I can tell you Mr.Frost that just like everyone else here who claims to have a Christian background that there are wide variations to how much they all interpret their faith as we do. The problems occur when people try to lump people into groups and start painting pictures to try to frighten the populace into hating another person that they are evil because they are different from them. That is why I always object to the pathetic attempt to stir racism or the victimisation of people because of who they are or their particular circumstances as in your original story. Nothing is as simple as the tabloid press like to paint their pictures, and unfortunately the majority of \"readers\" who look at those rags struggle to see that. To qoute another famous Billy, \"When you wake up to the fact that your paper is Tory, don't forget there's two sides to every story.\"

[MrFrost]

Barmby Rover wrote:

MrFrost wrote:

BillyStubbsTears wrote:

MrFrost wrote:

What's your take BST on the scenario I spoke about earlier regarding the Muslim lad and his English girlfriend? I'd actually be interested in your opinion.

What was your comment? I can't find it.

My post was:

I know a lass pretty well who started seeing a Muslim chap. She is a white English girl. She ended up getting pregnant and having a little boy. Now, he is absolutely terrified of telling his parents as they are strict muslims, and obviously this goes against their religion. He has decided he wont tell his folks and try and keep the kid a secret forever.
Now in a land where freedom and democracy is part of our culture, how is this right. This muslim lad has no freedom. He is bound by a set of rules that sets out what he can and cant do. In my opinion, there is no room for this way of life in our country.
The lad has been brought up in a Western world, and God knows what his parents would do if they found out. Would they turn the other cheek, I very much doubt it. But what do they expect? What do people expect to happen living in a Western country. This isn't a dig at Muslims, but it highlights the problems we face of living in society together with such vastly different beliefs and ways of life. It is naive to think we can live together in perfect harmony.

So different to our own culture isn't it? When I worked on the manor estate and a lass became pregnant the irate father of the girl literally went hunting for the poor lad with two bricks to do unspeakable harm to him, so much so that he ran away from home for several months. It depends upon not only religious \"culture \" as you term it but how the family culture,regional culture or even an individuals interpretation of his \"culture\" as to how they react when presented with a situation.Having met quite  lot of the Muslims who live in Sheffield over the past two years or so I can tell you Mr.Frost that just like everyone else here who claims to have a Christian background that there are wide variations to how much they all interpret their faith as we do. The problems occur when people try to lump people into groups and start painting pictures to try to frighten the populace into hating another person that they are evil because they are different from them. That is why I always object to the pathetic attempt to stir racism or the victimisation of people because of who they are or their particular circumstances as in your original story. Nothing is as simple as the tabloid press like to paint their pictures, and unfortunately the majority of \"readers\" who look at those rags struggle to see that. To qoute another famous Billy, \"When you wake up to the fact that your paper is Tory, don't forget there's two sides to every story.\"

You've not backed anything up there. This is something that has happened. Fact. The poor lad is scared, because he knows he betrayed his faith. My point was to show you hard it is for different cultures to mix and co-exist.
The poor kid that has been born will grow up, probably never knowing one side of its family. The lass in question, her family have no problem with the fact she has started a relationship with a Muslim and that they have a baby together. They are thrilled. Shouldn't the parents of the lad feel the same? Muslims are human aswell, and have human feelings and instincts. The fact that they are living in a Western society suggests that relationships will develop with people who aren't of their faith.
If we have to embrace the changes they bring to our country, then they should embrace things like this aswell.

[Barmby Rover]

You really don't get the point do you? The two people I point out are supposedly from THE SAME culture. Such an event is treated differently by different families no matter what their \"culture\". Perhaps we ought to follow your line of argument and search for absolute purity in our country in our various different so that none of us mix, then harmony would exist would it? Of course not. Of course you must be right, no Muslim in this country could ever accept anybody except themselves should exist should they? That all other people are subserviant to their beliefs? I think you are projecting your own opinions onto other people.

[MrFrost]

Barmby Rover wrote:

You really don't get the point do you? The two people I point out are supposedly from THE SAME culture. Such an event is treated differently by different families no matter what their \"culture\". Perhaps we ought to follow your line of argument and search for absolute purity in our country in our various different so that none of us mix, then harmony would exist would it? Of course not. Of course you must be right, no Muslim in this country could ever accept anybody except themselves should exist should they? That all other people are subserviant to their beliefs? I think you are projecting your own opinions onto other people.

No, its you who doesn't get the point. This muslim lad has fallen in love with a lass who isn't of the same faith. This goes against his beliefs and religion. He has had a child with her. Under Sharia law he'd probably be stoned.
Now, surely, after everyone suggesting our culture has to change through time because of the changes immigrants bring, surely they should also adapt they're beliefs and cultre in the same sense.
What chance has this lad got of a family life?

[nice one rovers]

bobjimwilly wrote:

I hate Americanisms. Don't event get me started on high school \"proms\".  :angry:

 'kin dead right, end of year disco was good enough for us. Also on americanisms, can we go to the shops and say \"can I have\" and not \"Can I get\", its f'kin straight out of Hannah Montana.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Mr Frost.

In your little anecdote, take the term \"Muslim\" and replace it with \"Irish Catholic\". Take the term \"English\" and replace it with \"Protestant\". And you have a story that could have applied in Denaby in 1950.

The point?

\"Cultures\" change as they rub up alongside one another. No Denaby Catholic father would now go hunting down a lad because he had got his little lass pregnant and was a Protestant. They might well, as Barmby points out, go and kill the little t**t for defiling the lass, but the religion would be irrelevant.

Give it time. Islamic culture is a many-faceted creature. There are liberals as well as fundamentalists - just like there are in Christianity. Muslim \"culture\" in Britain can swing either way. By demonising and heaping abuse of the Muslim Britons, you are making a nasty, fundamentalist reaction more likely. Which, of course, is PRECISELY what the far right would like. They don't want the Muslims to slowly integrate like the Jews or the Catholics did, or like the Afro-Carribbeans have been doing for 50 years. They actively want Enoch's \"Rivers of Blood\" so that there will be a reaction from Liberal Britain that will result in a xenophobic uprising.

By the way, that \"Under Sharia Law he'd probably be stoned\" comment is simply f**king stupid. It assumes that Sharia (and Islam in general) is some monolithic entity, with rigorous, fixed ideals. You could also say, \"Under Western Law, a mentally subnormal kid who sets fire to a house and kills someone would be executed by electric chair.\" They would in some backward, bigotted places (like the Mid-West perhaps), but not in the vast majority of enlightened, civilised parts of the West. Similarly, adulterers are lashed or stoned in some of the more benighted parts of the Muslim world, but not in the cosmopolitan urban areas. There's a debate and a discussion going on within Islam. The more viciously bigotted Imams in the poor, benighted areas still hold their flocks in medieval terror. Just like our own religious leaders did to us until recently. It will change. It is changing.

In the meantime, you want to have a pop at a vicious, blood-thirsty alien culture that has already infiltrated and affected ours and will probably do so for the rest of this century? Go look west instead of east. As a great philosopher once said, \"Come on Down, the Devil's in town. He's stuck his missiles in your garden and his theories down your throat. And God knows what your going to do about it, cos I certainly don't.\"

[BillyStubbsTears]

nice one rovers wrote:

bobjimwilly wrote:

I hate Americanisms. Don't event get me started on high school \"proms\".  :angry:

 'kin dead right, end of year disco was good enough for us. Also on americanisms, can we go to the shops and say \"can I have\" and not \"Can I get\", its f'kin straight out of Hannah Montana.

Surely the correct term is \"Gi's...\" int it? As in \"Gi's one o them oer theer.\"

And while we're at it, next t**t who comes \"Trick or Treating\" round Chez Stubbs will get treated to my size 11s in his gonads and a lecture on the pernicious effect of American Cultural Imperialism.

[MrFrost]

So we can't speak against muslims, immigrants etc but we can have a right old pop at the Yanks.
Culture changes, blah blah blah.

[nice one rovers]

BillyStubbsTears wrote:

nice one rovers wrote:

bobjimwilly wrote:

I hate Americanisms. Don't event get me started on high school \"proms\".  :angry:

 'kin dead right, end of year disco was good enough for us. Also on americanisms, can we go to the shops and say \"can I have\" and not \"Can I get\", its f'kin straight out of Hannah Montana.

Surely the correct term is \"Gi's...\" int it? As in \"Gi's one o them oer theer.\"

And while we're at it, next t**t who comes \"Trick or Treating\" round Chez Stubbs will get treated to my size 11s in his gonads and a lecture on the pernicious effect of American Cultural Imperialism.

 Hey, it's Scottish is trick or treat.

[BobG]

Your last two posts on this thread, Mr Frost, are two of the very best endorsements of Nazi political thought I have ever come across. I salute you. If not yet fully fledged, you are pursuing a course towards a political creed that was desstroyed by both war and the political will of the rest of the entire world. First the Jews, now the Muslims, next any bugger else who doesn't meet your particular vesrion of what constitutes being British. How about me? I have a French great grandmother. I have Irish about the same distance back. Where do you propose to draw a line? How do you make that judgement? What will happen when someone appeals because they've married a real, proper Britsh person? Or because they're related to Cameron? Or you?

This is now shameful.

And parenthetically, again you do make valid individual points. It is hard for different cultures to mix for example. But I really don't think you have considered where your thought process is leading you. An illustrative example, one which was put into practice, 60 years ago. Step 1: It's hard to mix cultures? OK. Chuck one of 'em out. Step 2: We don't like that minority over there? Make the buggers disappear. Step 3: We really don't like anyone we decide is mentally inferior? Murder 'em, quietly, in a hospital. Step 4: We don't like the smell of that bunch living over there. f**king well smoke 'em to death.

Once something is done, Mr Frost, it can never, never, never, be undone. Take that first step, and the next one isn't such a big stride, is it? We've got examples of that before our very eyes today: legislation to allow the original town centre cameras was specifically for town centre use in identified and known trouble spots. Each such camera needed formal prior approval from an appropriate independent person. Yet look where are we now 20 years later...

Until you think of the consequences of individual actions, you are never going to influence anybody, anywhere, to do anything.

BobG

[MrFrost]

BobG wrote:

Your last two posts on this thread, Mr Frost, are two of the very best endorsements of Nazi political thought I have ever come across. I salute you. If not yet fully fledged, you are pursuing a course towards a political creed that was desstroyed by both war and the political will of the rest of the entire world. First the Jews, now the Muslims, next any bugger else who doesn't meet your particular vesrion of what constitutes being British. How about me? I have a French great grandmother. I have Irish about the same distance back. Where do you propose to draw a line? How do you make that judgement? What will happen when someone appeals because they've married a real, proper Britsh person? Or because they're related to Cameron? Or you?

This is now shameful.

And parenthetically, again you do make valid individual points. It is hard for different cultures to mix for example. But I really don't think you have considered where your thought process is leading you. An illustrative example, one which was put into practice, 60 years ago. Step 1: It's hard to mix cultures? OK. Chuck one of 'em out. Step 2: We don't like that minority over there? Make the buggers disappear. Step 3: We really don't like anyone we decide is mentally inferior? Murder 'em, quietly, in a hospital. Step 4: We don't like the smell of that bunch living over there. fcuking well smoke 'em to death.

Once something is done, Mr Frost, it can never, never, never, be undone. Take that first step, and the next one isn't such a big stride, is it? We've got examples of that before our very eyes today: legislation to allow the original town centre cameras was specifically for town centre use in identified and known trouble spots. Each such camera needed formal prior approval from an appropriate independent person. Yet look where are we now 20 years later...

Until you think of the consequences of individual actions, you are never going to influence anybody, anywhere, to do anything.

BobG

Bob, you are missing my point entirley.
I am not suggesting throwing anyone out because they are muslim. My point is how to solve problems like the one I mentioned regarding the muslim guy and his girlfriend. I know them both. He would love to be able to tell his parents and let them get to know his grandson. The reality is that it would probably tear his family apart.
The mixing of two cultures and religions with different beliefs is a scary thought. Her family have embraced it and have no problem.
Maybe there isn't a solution, and we have to co-exist the best we can whilst respecting each other without forming intimate relationships.

[BillyStubbsTears]

nice one rovers wrote:

BillyStubbsTears wrote:

nice one rovers wrote:

bobjimwilly wrote:

I hate Americanisms. Don't event get me started on high school \"proms\".  :angry:

 'kin dead right, end of year disco was good enough for us. Also on americanisms, can we go to the shops and say \"can I have\" and not \"Can I get\", its f'kin straight out of Hannah Montana.

Surely the correct term is \"Gi's...\" int it? As in \"Gi's one o them oer theer.\"

And while we're at it, next t**t who comes \"Trick or Treating\" round Chez Stubbs will get treated to my size 11s in his gonads and a lecture on the pernicious effect of American Cultural Imperialism.

 Hey, it's Scottish is trick or treat.

Fu-ck-ing he-ll. Even more reason to kick seven shades oot o the little t**ts.

[Barmby Rover]

MrFrost wrote:

BobG wrote:

Your last two posts on this thread, Mr Frost, are two of the very best endorsements of Nazi political thought I have ever come across. I salute you. If not yet fully fledged, you are pursuing a course towards a political creed that was desstroyed by both war and the political will of the rest of the entire world. First the Jews, now the Muslims, next any bugger else who doesn't meet your particular vesrion of what constitutes being British. How about me? I have a French great grandmother. I have Irish about the same distance back. Where do you propose to draw a line? How do you make that judgement? What will happen when someone appeals because they've married a real, proper Britsh person? Or because they're related to Cameron? Or you?

This is now shameful.

And parenthetically, again you do make valid individual points. It is hard for different cultures to mix for example. But I really don't think you have considered where your thought process is leading you. An illustrative example, one which was put into practice, 60 years ago. Step 1: It's hard to mix cultures? OK. Chuck one of 'em out. Step 2: We don't like that minority over there? Make the buggers disappear. Step 3: We really don't like anyone we decide is mentally inferior? Murder 'em, quietly, in a hospital. Step 4: We don't like the smell of that bunch living over there. fcuking well smoke 'em to death.

Once something is done, Mr Frost, it can never, never, never, be undone. Take that first step, and the next one isn't such a big stride, is it? We've got examples of that before our very eyes today: legislation to allow the original town centre cameras was specifically for town centre use in identified and known trouble spots. Each such camera needed formal prior approval from an appropriate independent person. Yet look where are we now 20 years later...

Until you think of the consequences of individual actions, you are never going to influence anybody, anywhere, to do anything.

BobG

Bob, you are missing my point entirley.
I am not suggesting throwing anyone out because they are muslim. My point is how to solve problems like the one I mentioned regarding the muslim guy and his girlfriend. I know them both. He would love to be able to tell his parents and let them get to know his grandson. The reality is that it would probably tear his family apart.
The mixing of two cultures and religions with different beliefs is a scary thought. Her family have embraced it and have no problem.
Maybe there isn't a solution, and we have to co-exist the best we can whilst respecting each other without forming intimate relationships.

So we ban anybody from having \"intimate relationships\" with anyone from a different \"culture\". How Nazi is that Mr.Frost? Let us only breed the pure race eh, because we cannot mix and integrate? The only reason why it can't happen is because of the bigoted and racist attitudes of folks like yourself who love to point out the differences instead of seeing two human beings and create hatred. Pathetic.

[MrFrost]

Where did I say ban it you fool. The situation I explained is reason enough why it is difficult to happen. It is the family of the Muslim lad being bigoted surely as they won't embrace the fact he is in a relationship with a White British girl.

[bobjimwilly]

MrFrost wrote:

Where did I say ban it you fool. The situation I explained is reason enough why it is difficult to happen. It is the family of the Muslim lad being bigoted surely as they won't embrace the fact he is in a relationship with a White British girl.

If his family can't accept the situation, that is up to them.
You are generalising and saying we as society shouldn't allow the mixing of different cultures, because a minority may not agree with it - that is wrong. Plain and simple.

[MrFrost]

bobjimwilly wrote:

MrFrost wrote:

Where did I say ban it you fool. The situation I explained is reason enough why it is difficult to happen. It is the family of the Muslim lad being bigoted surely as they won't embrace the fact he is in a relationship with a White British girl.

If his family can't accept the situation, that is up to them.
You are generalising and saying we as society shouldn't allow the mixing of different cultures, because a minority may not agree with it - that is wrong. Plain and simple.

Where have I said that. If you can read, you'll find I was discussing finding solutions to these problems.

[bobjimwilly]

MrFrost wrote:

Where have I said that. If you can read, you'll find I was discussing finding solutions to these problems.

Erm, here:
MrFrost wrote:

Maybe there isn't a solution, and we have to co-exist the best we can whilst respecting each other without forming intimate relationships.

[bobjimwilly]

Would you mind listing the \"solutions\" you have discussed to the \"problems\" you have mentioned?  

[Hounslowrover]

Amazing all this talk about Sharia law and attitudes towards Muslims, yet the Beth Din exists as a civil court for Jews in this country - yet they faced similar discrimination and prejudice, now we accept their rights.  Perhaps some of us on this site may eventually learn tolerance of differences.

[Glyn_Wigley]

MrFrost wrote:

So we can't speak against muslims, immigrants etc but we can have a right old pop at the Yanks.
Culture changes, blah blah blah.

We're having a pop at Americanisms, not Americans. You see, we're able to make the kind of distinction that you don't seem able to when talking about Muslims and immigrants.

[Snods Shinpad 2]

Here you go Frosty. Another thing to get angry about.

[MrFrost]

Haha. You really couldn't make it up. I presume these toilets are in addition to the more conventional kind and not in place of them? The story doesn't make that clear.
If the shopping centre feel a need to waste their money on  this then that is up to them I suppose.

[ScillyRover]

Snods Shinpad 2 wrote:

Here you go Frosty. Another thing to get angry about.

Ha Ha !... let's hope there isn't one with a white stick visiting that... they'd be right in the S***
 

And another thing... how do you manage to read the Daily Quran on there !

[Glyn_Wigley]

MrFrost wrote:

Haha. You really couldn't make it up.

Well, they made up that paragraph about Thomas Crapper. Doesn't bode well for the rest of the article.

[Snods Shinpad 2]

Thanks to the efforts of pioneers like the legendary Thomas Crapper, we have long since led the world in comfort and hygiene.

Only the Daily Mail would attempt to make someone feel patriotic about taking a dump.